The Spike Thread (Buffy related and LONG)

Cafe Society
81

The thing is Spike tries to present himself as evil. He wasn’t justifying himself but explaining how a vampire could kill a Slayer. Lets face it Angelus and the Master aside vampires are pretty pathetic as a whole. Spike agrees with Trion and JThunder. He may even not care what Dru wants at the moment he tortures her, I doubt he gives much thought to immediate consent.

I think Spike over portrays his evil because he is affraid he may be redemption material. This makes him even more interesting. He wants to retain the amoral freedom of his vampiric nature but the chip has made it possible for his better nature to shine through.

He is a demonic creature but he may redeem. He has done evil things, and may do them again. I really don’t see anyone saying explicitly “It is ok because he is hot/cool/in love/I want to have his demonic love child.” Some people seem to be more forgiving because it is in his nature to be evil and thus find his steps to redemption more impressive.

Oh and about the chip. I think he hasn’t removed it because vampire’s can clearly suffer real damage. Vampires have increased healing abilities but there is no reason to assume they can heal types of damage that humans can’t. Thus brain damage is a bad thing for them to suffer.

82

Reading all this, I have come to a fresh conclusion.

Spike is no more evil than my dog.

Vampires are beasts… they operate on instinct, in a separate moral universe. They do not see themselves as “of” us any more than we see ourselves as “of” chimps. Just as we feel that as superior beings that therefore have a right to eat and exploit lesser beings, so vampires feel. They are a different species, and their species eats our species. Do we consider it evil when the lion eats the lamb? Certainly not…just doing what comes naturally. And I think if you asked the lion, she would tell you that yeah, hunting is fun. It doesn’t make her evil, it means she enjoys being a lion and doing what lions do.

So Spike is like a dog or a cat… a “vicious” killer that has been tamed and learned to love and protect his “family”, but is still pretty vicious towards everyone else.

And that settles it. :smiley:

(Of course, taken to it’s logical conclusion, that makes sex with Spike a form of beastiality, but lets not go there…)

stoid

83

JThunder, what could Spike do to satisfy you he isn’t evil? Let’s start with that.

84

Come on. This is getting ridiculous.

How about a point which has been raised repeatedly in this thread… REMORSE and REPENTANCE? He has shown no regret whatsoever for his previous actions, and when he thought his chip was disabled, he immediately tried to feast on someone.

In addition, how about NOT SELLING DEMON EGGS THAT ARE BOUND TO CAUSE MASS DEVASTATION? And that’s just the tip of the iceberg.

See? This is the ridiculousness that we’ve been talking about. Even after Trion’s excellent initial post, and even after we discussed several examples of how Spike continues to be evil, some people still ask what it would take for Spike to prove he’s not evil.

Besides, this line of reasoning is fruitless. Spike has ALREADY shown himself to be abusive, manipulative and downright evil. There’s no point in asking what he must do to demonstrate that he has reformed. He has ALREADY demonstrated that he hasn’t.

85

I have no problem with Spike torturing Dru as part of a consensual relationship. I also have no problem with Spike having sex with Dru while as part of a consensual relationship. But in the episode I mentioned, Dru has left Spike. She has made it clear that she no longer wants any relationship of any kind with him. At the end of the episode, Spike drives off to find, restrain and torture Dru.

  This would not be a consensual act. His plan is to torture her until she loves him again. Dru enjoys torture with certain men. This does not mean she enjoys being tortured by all men. For Spike to torture Dru at this point would be evil. What if Spike had said that he would find Dru, tie her to a chair and have sex with her against her will? Like torture, sex is something Dru used to enjoy with Spike. But she has made it clear that their relationship is over and that Spike no longer has her consent to do these things.

  As for the way to win Dru's heart, I've had that figured for a long time. Dru is very evil,  but I have this thing for Malkavian women. You don't have to tie her up or torture her. Just give her a bouquet of nestlings impaled on rose stems and say "Your face is so beautiful I want to slice it off with razors so I can carry it with me until the stars get tired and go out and the universe ends."

Re-Spike, Buffy and Physical Abuse
I never saw that as the problem. The punching etc, seems to be largely consensual. But as other posters have pointed out, Spike’s emotional manipulation of Buffy is abuse in its own right. Spike repeatedly tells her that she doesn’t belong with humans or sunlight. He says the he, and only he, truly understands her. He is trying to seperate Buffy from her friends and family in order to make her completely emotionally dependent on him.

86

Believe me, there was a LOT of that going on in previous threads. A LOT. In fact, that’s why Trion started this thread… because Buffy discussions invariably steer that way.

Besides, in this thread, there was an attempt to excuse Spike’s selling of demon eggs because he (supposedly) did it to help Buffy. Even if this was his sole intent – and that’s by no means clear – it’s still an attempt to excuse his actions because of his love for Buff.

87

After the last episode, I want to hurt Xander. Actually, I’ve wanted to hurt him for a while now, ever since he made Anya keep their engagement a secret. And, personally, if someone treated me the way Xander treats Spike, I’d want to hurt him too, regardless of whether I deserved it or not.

Does that make me evil? ;).

88

JThunder, take it easy. I already stated that I pretty much side with you. I just wonder if, starting now, Spike could do anything to show you that he was reformed, and what that would be if so.

For me I don’t think he will or can. I’d be ashamed of the Buffyverse if it got that much more Melrose’s Haunted Place. I sort of like Stoid’s outlook, except for the fact that demons are clearly human-like enough for my satisfaction, and definitely seem to have a conscious will. For that, they are going to have to accept my moral judgement of them.

At any rate, I’m fairly comfortable thinking that Spike cannot reform, and that he is evil, albeit a useful evil chap for the Scoobs. They ain’t saints, I say use what tools you can when you can.

89

That wasn’t really my point. The example I gave was imperfect 'cause I wasn’t shooting for a perfect example. I was trying to make a pont about consent. Given Dru’s consent - and possibly a safeword (with Dru? Ha!) - I have no problems with them being as rough as they want sexually.

However DocCathode’s discussion of the situation is absolutely correct. The discussion had wandered so far from the episode in question that I simply lost track. My bad. Sorry.

90

JThunder I saw the arguments in the other threads more as “I don’t care that he is evil.” not so much “He isn’t really evil.” But you are right Spike defense is fairly high in the other Buffy threads.

That being said Stoid is pretty much right. Vampires are in a different moral sphere than humans. They clearly judge eachother by different standerds (Darla though Angel was sick for what he had become) and since they are drawn to eating humans then eat humans they do. The peripheral nastiness is less justifiable but these aren’t angry lions but instead primal embodiements of unpleasant forces.

Again however I think this makes Spike’s resistance of his own evil, however minimal, impressive. It doesn’t redeem him or even set him straight onto redemption but it shows that for something that is pure evil wrapped in a pretty package there is something else in operation.

Spike has no trouble interacting in a fairly healthy, and even supportive manner, with humans (remember his talk with Willow). He is keenly observant of other’s feelings and can be swayed by them. There are things that make him less evil than he could be. So yes he is evil. Sure he isn’t redeeming right now. But there are ways for him to do so. I think that where he is right now is a good place for him in terms of being an interesting character. I’d like to see some development on the possibility of being redeemed or reverting but his current semi-evil is he a crippled semi-decent monster or morally deficient man is interesting.

Of course I am waiting for him to off Buffy because as Angelus said “To kill this girl you have to love her.”

91

Except the reason Dru left Spike is because he wasn’t evil enough.

92

If memory serves, Dru left Spike because he was obssessed with Buffy.

93

How anyone could choose Buffy over Dru is a mystery. Spike isn’t just evil, he’s stupid. She’s savage. She’s loving. She’s powerful. She divine the future in some limited way. She’s beautiful.

Actually, kind of sounds like Buffy when you factor in the whole “I had a dream about this” thing. Maybe no mystery at all, then. Oh, but Dru will live forever. And she’s a brunette. :wink:

I stick by it… Buffy is a replacement for Dru, and Spike looks at her the same way. Is there really any evidence that contradicts this?

94

DocCathode… from “Lover’s Walk”:

Spike: She just left. She didn’t even care enough to cut off my head or set me on fire. (sniffs) I mean, is that too much to ask? You know? Some little sign that she cared?

He pauses for a moment to inhale and exhale deeply.

Spike: It was that truce with Buffy that did it. Dru said I’d gone
soft. Wasn’t demon enough for the likes of her. And I told her it didn’t mean anything, I was thinking of her the whole time, but she didn’t care. So, we got to Brazil, and she was… she was just different. I gave her everything: beautiful jewels, beautiful dresses with beautiful girls in them, but nothing made her happy. And she would fliiirt! (sniffs) I caught her on a park bench, making out with a chaos demon! Have you ever seen a chaos demon? They’re all slime and antlers. They’re disgusting.

{snip}

Spike: You’re not friends. You’ll never be friends. You’ll be in love till it kills you both. You’ll fight, and you’ll shag, and you’ll hate each other till it makes you quiver, but you’ll never be
friends. (points at his temple) Love isn’t brains, children, it’s
blood… (clasps his chest) blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may be love’s bitch, but at least I’m man enough to admit it.

{snip}

Spike: (smiling) I’m really glad I came here, you know? I’ve been all wrongheaded about this. Weeping, crawling, blaming everybody else. I want Dru back, I’ve just gotta be the man I was, (stands proud) the man she loved. I’m gonna do what I shoulda done in the first place: I’ll find her, wherever she is, tie her up, torture her until she likes me again.
And Eris… from “The Crush”:

DRUSILLA: Not nice to change the game in mid-play, Spike. You’ve taken my chair and the music hasn’t stopped.
SPIKE: Sorry, pet. My house, my rules.
DRUSILLA: I think I shall be very cross with you when I’m free again.
BUFFY: What’s going on?
SPIKE: Simple. I’m gonna prove something. (moves up close to her) I love you.
BUFFY: Oh my god.
SPIKE: No, look at me! I … love you. You’re all I bloody think about. Dream about. You’re in my gut … my throat … I’m drowning in you, Summers, I’m drowning in you.

Dru begins to laugh. Spike turns.

SPIKE: I can do without the laugh track, Dru.
DRUSILLA: But it’s so funny. I knew … before you did. I knew you loved the Slayer. The pixies in my head whispered it to me.

Spike turns back to Buffy as Dru continues talking.

SPIKE: You can’t tell me that there isn’t anything there between you and me. I know you feel something.
BUFFY: It’s called revulsion. And whatever you think you’re feeling, it’s not love. You can’t love without a soul.
DRUSILLA: Oh, we can, you know. We can love quite well. If not wisely.
SPIKE: (to Buffy) You still don’t believe. Still don’t think I mean it. You want proof, huh? How’s this?

SPIKE: I’m gonna kill Drusilla for you.

Dru begins laughing again.

BUFFY: That doesn’t prove anything … except that you’re a sick miserable vampire that I should have dusted a long time ago. And, hey, already there.
SPIKE: Don’t mock this.
BUFFY: Go mock yourself.
SPIKE: This is Drusilla, girl! You have the slightest idea what she means to me? It’s the face of my salvation! (looks at Dru, smiles slightly) She delivered me from mediocrity. For over a century we … cut a swath through continents. A hundred years, she never stopped surprising me.

SPIKE: (quietly) Never stopped taking me to new depths. I was a lucky bloke. (Dru smiles) Just to touch such a black beauty.
DRUSILLA: Aw…

Suddenly Spike lifts the stake again and puts it firmly against Dru’s chest. She gasps and winces.

DRUSILLA: Ow.
SPIKE: (turning to look at Buffy) So you see, it means something.
BUFFY: Not to me. Kill her, why do I care?

SPIKE: Here’s why. (walks toward Buffy) If you don’t admit … that there’s something there … some tiny feeling for me … then I’ll untie Dru, let her kill you instead.
DRUSILLA: (nodding quickly) Yes, please. I like that game much more.
SPIKE: Just … give me something … a crumb … a barest smidgen … tell me … maybe, someday, there’s a chance.

Buffy looks intensely at him. He moves right up close to her.

BUFFY: Spike…

He looks hopeful.

BUFFY: The only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious.
SPIKE: (puzzled) Oh, what… (makes a face of extreme frustration) Ohh!

He turns away, throws the stake away and gives a loud angry yell.

SPIKE: (shouting) Gaaah! What the bleeding hell is wrong with you bloody women? What the hell does it take? Why … do you bitches torture me?
BUFFY: Which question do you want me to answer first?
SPIKE: Look, I, I’m at the end of my bleeding tether. You know? I don’t even know why I even bother, you know. (points at Dru) This is your fault. You’re the one to blame for all this.
DRUSILLA: Am I?
SPIKE: (shouting) Bloody right you are! If you hadn’t left me for that chaos demon, I never would have come back here! Never would have had this sodding chip in my skull! And you - (to Buffy) wouldn’t be able to touch me, because this, (pointing to Buffy, then to himself) with you, is wrong. I know it. I’m not a complete idiot.

He stomps past Buffy, then turns back.

SPIKE: You think I like having you in here? Destroying everything that was me, until all that’s left is you, in a dead shell. (scoffs) You say you hate it, but you won’t leave. You know, what I should just do, is get rid of both of you. Burn you. Cut you into little pieces (makes scissor gesture with his fingers) so there won’t be any more bints to cock up things for Spi-

95

Was that supposed to contradict it? (am I being dense? It doesn’t seem to…) (And God, I can just picture Dru saying those things… “Yes, please. I like that game much more.” rowr :D)

96

You know, in regards to him being reformed, for any actions of his to have been reformed in some way, I feel that they have to fit three important criteria:

1.) The action is not motivated by a desire for money and/or services. Spike helping Giles in “A New Man” doesn’t count as reform because he was getting paid.

2.) The action is not motivated by his violent/hunting urges. Fighting demons just so he can get his rocks off doesn’t count. Neither does his helping Buffy at the end of Season 2. He only did that so he could continue hunting. Personally, though, I feel his helping Buffy DID show he was smarter than the average vamp. He didn’t want to end the world not only because of Dru, but because he knew that if humans were gone, he’d have nothing to hunt.

3.) The action is not motivated by wanting credit from Buffy. Standing up to Glory therefore doesn’t qualify. Yes, he could have died, but he would have died with the Slayer caring about him, pleased with him, thinking about him, grateful to him. In this vein, neither does protecting Dawn in “The Gift.”

Thus, most of Spike’s “redeeming” actions have been disqualified. However, I feel that two things he’s done have followed this model, and that as a result, the writers at least want us to wonder if he’s been reformed. The two actions are:

Leaving flowers for Joyce in “Forever.” As Willow said, he didn’t leave a card with his name. I think he just would have left them on the doorstep. He didn’t want credit from Buffy, and leaving the flowers would in no way have benefited him.

Protecting Dawn post-The Gift. Now, there was no way (he knew of) for him to get credit from Buffy. He played the part of baby-sitter. He didn’t want anything from Dawn (I don’t think). And he wasn’t expecting Buffy to come back (was against it, judging by quotes in “After Life”. In fact, I think on some level his actions pissed Dawn off (would YOU want a sitter at 15? I was SITTING before that). Yes, this originated with a promise to Buffy. But Buffy is gone; she can’t reward him. He’s sticking to his word.

Now, I don’t believe these actions prove he’s reformed, but I do think they show that he has the potential for that.

97

bobkitty - The stuff from “Lover’s Walk” is Spike’s version of events. If you want to know why Dru dumped Spike, it might be more instructive to look at the scene in “Fool For Love”:

You may read this as you will.

98

Actually, there were a lot of postings which claimed that Spike had already reformed. In fact, Trion’s OP discussed (and thoroughly refuted) some of the arguments used to justify that claim.

Also, please don’t forget bobkitty’s claim that Spike is morally neutral. By definition, asserting that Spike is morally neutral (which he isn’t) automatically implies that he is not evil.

99

Bingo. Didn’t you read my post?

100

That was ecactly the scene I was thinking of.
Re Dru-Don’t forget the accent! She’s the only one in that vamp family to keep her accent.

    "Run and catch. Run an catch. The lamb is caught in the blackberry patch."