The Spike Thread (Buffy related and LONG)

Cafe Society
141

I think the sunburn analogy was just to indicate that it doesn’t really mean anything other than she’s a tad different. Presumably, the change was on a deep genetic/soul/magic level and won’t go away, but we’ll see what happens with the chip in the future.

Of course, I also think the whole “Buffy isn’t human” thing was a cheap plot point to A) let Spike fight Buffy, B) make Buffy confess to someone about her and Spike, and C) show us just one more time how evil Spike is (when he thought the chip was broken, he went right back to hunting).

142

Trion already addressed that point. Even if we grant that Buffy had previously attempted to physically repel Spike (and this is by no means clear from previous episodes), the level of her objection was vastly different in the infamous bathroom scene. In that scene, Buffy was saying NO and her body was saying NO, in no uncertain terms.

Besides which, it’s still attempted rape, even if Spike had reason to believe that Buffy would say yes. Such belief would not hold up in a court of law. (“Yes, your honor. I tried to force myself sexually on this woman… but in my defense, I honestly thought that she’d acquiesce. After all, she had given on previous occasions!”

Trion answered this point quite well. Spike’s lack of success merely means that, well, he failed. It does nothing to redeem his character.

Get real. Buffy had explicitly said no, and there was an extended scene wherein she attempted to repel Spike and squirm out of his grasp. This indicates more than a mere “lack of enthusiasm” on her part.

There are many kinds of abuse, Stoid. If a woman is romantically involved with a manipulative man, and if she keeps making excuses for that man, then she is being abused. Moreover, the arguments you’ve been using are precisely the kind of defense that abused women often give in support of their hubbies or boyfriends. Is it any wonder that your words are raising alarms?

143

<<verbiage snipped>>

p’girl, I think your analysis was eminently reasonable, and I agree with you. I think that Spike did show signs of guilt and regret, as you insightfully described. As you said, this doesn’t excuse his actions, or make him un-evil, but it is a positive indication.

Very nice.

144

Stoid it was clearly an attempted rape. In fact, the twisted logic needed to describe it as anything else is disappointing from someone who normally I agree with. But, with Spike your often wrong.

A question- if Spike was played by a fat actor with bad skin would you be so fast to explain away everything he did. Sure he has some redeeming qualities. But with the attempted rape, demon eggs and various Buffy manipulations, not to mention his past (adam, ect. . . ) it may be time to take off the rose colored glasses.

Maybe its time to look past the actor, and examine the character and plot actually presented. It’s like the argument in another thread that Spike was not evil because the poster did not think the show’s writers were right in what they did. Huh, the show is what it is. Let go of Spike as dreamy english bad-boy sex symbol. They are setting Spike up for big bad-dom, just watch.

-me

145

elf6c: Nope, they’re setting him up for redemption. What Spike is going through is going to mirror what Buffy went through earlier: he’s feeling guilt and remorse, just as Buffy was feeling depressed and unconnected. Buffy actually hoped she had come back wrong, because that would mean what she was feeling was artificial, that it wasn’t her who felt this way. Similarly, Spike wants to blame his rediscovered humanity on the chip, will somehow get it removed, and find that he still is feeling exactly the same things. I can’t even speculate on where the writers will take it from there.

All of that’s just my WAG, by the way.

146

Actually, I don’t think that Spike is headed for redemption. I do agree that he’ll attempt to get the chip removed, in the hope of removing his feelings, but I suspect that his goal is to seek the dark side instead.

Ultimately, it boils down to his comment that he can’t be either man or demon. He’s going to try to be one or the other. Which one? We’ll have to wait to find out.

147

Okay, we can use the word “rape” if you insist. But the average rape is not motivated by the same things that motivated Spike.

Now I think your issues are showing.

I can’t do anything about the fact that James Marsters is a handsome man, and I actually kinda resent the implication, hell, outright accusation, that I’m incapable of understanding the character because I’m so blinded by his beauty. Were that the case, I would be making excuses for Early Grace.

If I am affected by anything, it is by James Marsters’ acting, which is subtle, nuanced, and heartbreaking. His Spike is not a simple bad guy that wants to screw a slayer, he’s much more complex than that, and much more sensitive.

As I believe I said at the very beginning of this discussion, the great thing about Spike is that he is still very much William, the Fool for Love, and that is extremely appealing and sympathetic.

But let me share something that someone else wrote that I think really does sum it all up nicely, and this person is a rape survivor who works with an organization devoted to helping women victims of abuse and sexual assault.

and someone else responded:

and

And that really says it all for me.

148

Well argued Stoid. My view is that he is an inherantly evil character who is willing to overcome those impluses (usually) for only certain people.

But as we saw when he thought the chip was not working- the FIRST thing he did was attack and try to drink an innocent woman in an alley. Not to mention the Demon Egg’s scheme-- both of which he did after he was “reformed by love”. I think the show has been careful to show a well drawn character- which will make his role a Uber-Bad Boy all the better (think of the fun the series had with Angelus).

Was not trying to say that- rather that your analysis was baised by these factors to the detriment of your overall summarization of the character of Spike- by James’ great acting and fetching appearance. Never meant to say or imply “incapable” as I do not believe that at all- rather “colored by” was what I was looking for. If I missed that mea clupa- I apologise. Overall, on the Spike evil issue we may just have to agree to disagree.

Miller your point is well taken. My thought is that they need a villan for next season as the nerds and “Real Life” plot lines are thankfully just about done. Spike would be awfully convienent for a Big Bad- if a bit to derivitive off of the Angelus plot line of a couple of seasons ago. But, this could be a smoke screen for a Willow big bad- but I doubt one of the big 3 will be used like that.

-me

149

Well, Stoid, if I read your post correctly, the main concern seems to be that we shouldn’t hold the Buffyverse characters to real-life standards. We should instead look to how these acts are portrayed within the context of the Buffyverse. I’m fine with that, but I still don’t think your argument holds up. If it’s one thing I’ve learned from reading interviews with Joss and Marti, is the idea that redemption must be earned. This is an idea that I think they’ve been pretty consistent with.

Within the context of the Buffyverse, Angels past actions have been portrayed as evil, but he’s spent eight decades suffering for them before he met Buffy - and he ain’t done yet. His murder of Jenny was also portrayed as an evil act, for which he spent a couple of centuries in a Hell dimension.

Buffy sending Angel to hell is not portrayed as an evil act 'cause she was trying to save the world.

Willow’s Tabula Rasa spell was portrayed as the act of an addict, for which Willow is currently in recovery. (Well, until that last scene.)

The biggest discrepency is Anya. In real world terms her acts were terrible and must be redeemed. Unfortunately, her actions have been portrayed in a humerous manner within the context of the Buffyverse, so I guess that lets her off the hook. Or not. I’ll let you decide.

Spike’s actions in THE SCENE? I dunno about you, but I don’t think they were portrayed as good acts. They certainly don’t show him acting reformed or good. I think they clearly show a step towards the evil side, making his redemtion that much harder to earn.

As pepperlandgirl has correctly stated, his actions afterwards may indicate a hope for change in Spike. We’ll have to wait and see on that. I’ve never considered it impossible that Spike be reformed. In a show that has altered the fabric of reality, that would be pretty stupid of me. But I’m not gonna grant him his redeemed status just 'cause he’s hung around. He’s still deeply in the Karma hole and THE SCENE just digs him in that much deeper.

The thing is - I’m not entirely sure that I am reading your post correctly. Your quotes seem to say that it’s a bad idea to use real-world standards to judge Buffyverse actions. But then your last quote seems to do just that. It took me a while to decide that it was just an example of how it’s a bad idea, but I’m still not sure.

It looks like you took a bunch of out-of-context quotes from a discussion I’m not privy to and presented them here to support your argument. First of all, that’s confusing. I don’t know what these people meant in the context of their discussion and they can’t respond to what we’ve said in this thread. I actually think we covered a lot of stuff they were talking about. Secondly, I think it’s poor form in a debate. I could go out and find as many quotes from other message boards and newsgroups as you’d like to support my side, bundle them together and let you try to make sense of them all. But I’d rather not.

Personally, I’d like to see Spike as the Big Bad next season. With Dru.

150

I fail to see how that’s relevant. At best, it would indicat that Spike is not an “average” rapist. It does nothing to redeem Spike’s character.

Besides, rapists don’t all have the same motivation. Some are motivated by power. Some are motivated by frustrated sexual desire. And many are motivated by some combination thereof. Whatever the motive, it is still vile and inexcusable.

I agree with elf8c You can’t say that real-world standards don’t apply to the Buffyverse, but then turn around and defend Spike based on how real-world women and rapists would behave. That simply isn’t logical.

Besides, we can’t simply discard real-world standards of human behavior, simply because the Buffyverse is wrapped in mystical trappings. Good fantasy and science fiction writers typically maintain real-world motivations and personalities within their fictional trappings; after all, if we throw human behavior away, it becomes extremely difficult to make their characters act believably and credibly. Moreover, Joss Whedon himself has said that Buffy is about real-world problems, struggles and situations, albeit couched in vampiric and demonic mythology. If Joss says so, then I think we should evaluate their characters on that basis.

Heck, even if we accept your excuses for Spike, that still doesn’t support the claim that Buffy should be accepting of his affections. After all, Buffy is still human, albeit a slayeriffic human. She has consistently shown herself to be a competent, psychologically normal woman. If Spike is merely amoral, driven by animal instincts – likened to a dog, as per your previous posting – then that would be an excellent reason for Buffy to NOT seek romance from Spike. Psychologically normal women do not date household pets.

151

These quotes aren’t out of context. I know what board she took them from. Actually, they are out of context here. Ok, the first quote with the 5 reasons and examples is actually an OP to a thread, and the responses are actual responses. When I saw the thread, everybody was agreeing with the OP.

152

Thank you pepperlandgirl. That was my point. Taking the beginning of somebody’s discussion and placing it in the middle of another discussion can be confusing. At least it was to me.

153

I just came across this spoiler re: Spike http://pub64.ezboard.com/fjamesmarstersdotcomfrm4.showMessage?topicID=117.topic"]here

WARNING! READ AT OWN RISK! I CANNOT VERIFY THIS INFORMATION! WARNING! READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!! (Note: These spoilers are only about Spike. I removed all the info re: what’s going on in Sunnydale.

[spoiler] UPN released May sweep tidbits to promote in their promos.
Also, after getting his heart broken by Buffy, Spike is in search of a soul undergoes a fiery test given by the African demon in order to win it. (didn’t they just repeat the same thing? oh well.)

“Two To Go – PART 2”
5/21/02
PART 2 OF SEAMLESS 2-HOUR.
Spike searches for a soul. [/spoiler]

If this is true, it’s very, very interesting. Very interesting.

154

Of course I messed up the link. :rolleyes:

155

Thanks for using the spoiler tag and for finding that info for us pepperlandgirl. Something interesting to think about in context of the current discussions. Hope everyone has a nice weekend! :slight_smile:

-me

156

Re the pepperlandgirl spoiler, I have only this to say:

What, now the Gypsies aren’t good enough to give him back his soul? Racist bastards.

157

reminds me of a segment from Amazon Women On The Moon.

‘Hi, I’m BB King. I’d like to talk to you about a horrible condition affecting millions of people. …So, please give generously to Blacks Without Soul.’

and from the same cinematic tour de force

You know him. You love him. The man who turned a devastating handicap into a multimillion dollar career-Don “No Soul” Simmons. Now you can own all Don’s greatest hits in one collection

  Tie A Yellow Ribbon
  Don't Sit Under The Apple Tree
  Blame It On The Bossa Nova
 Copa Cabana
and more!