dropzone You read our constitution? :eek: Believe me, not everything or every person in the Netherlands is perfect. As to soldiers acting horribly: I bet I can find proof of every ‘civilized’ army doing the same thing, [France and Algeria comes to mind] including the pathetic Dutch army.
[what pisses me off, though, is Bin Laden willing to pay HALF of the normal price of gold, for a dead Dutch soldier. I feel insulted. ]
Thank you for your post. It gets things a little more in perspective. Gotta love Captain Kirk doing the preamble. hehehe.
No, No, No, - this was the greatest of all the many lies that were told to lead us sheep-like into this stupid war.
“war can be civilized, precise, and surgical. Look, Shock and Awe - it’s just a pretty firework display. Look at the nice pictures from the smart bombs - it’s just a video game”
Estimates vary but it’s certain that more civilians have died - men, women, children, babies - often screaming in agony - than died on 9/11. We condemn Arab news stations for showing this suffering - but just because US stations haven’t shown it, doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
We need things like the Geneva convention (itself one of the causalities of recent US policy). But war itself can never be civilized
Well, I know. And it’s definitely the latter. And that they will use that as a yardstick against which to measure all that goes down in Iraq and Afghanistan. And frankly, I could hear Rumsfeld asking, “Is anyone being thrown into ovens? Good heavens, no!” until yesterday when I listened to him sounding as chastened as he’s ever likely to be. Although, I have a c-note on Jonah Goldberg using it within the next three months.
And just to reiterate, gum, a helluva lot of US citizens are beating themselves up. And I’m not sure that they shouldn’t be. And I refuse to believe that war can ever be civilized. That’s why it should always be the last option.
I’ll drink to that. 'Samatter of fact, first round’s on me.
I dread. An American, sooner or later, will be captured, and subjected to wretched abuse, publicly displayed. The Troglodyte Right will scream itself hoarse. “Never mind how we got into this, we’re in it and we must win at any price! Any opposition to the War must now be considered treasonous, and all right thinking Americans must solidly support Our Leader!” And it’ll work, it always does. When has it ever failed?
This is a fairly tired quote, but it always gives me a little chill anyway.
“Of course the people don’t want war. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.”
Except, except, except … This isn’t just a regrettable side result of a war fought for larger purposes, this was the one real reason for the war to be fought at all.
The one rationale for this war that everyone agreed was reality-based, the one that everyone agreed would be a good thing, even if the costs were still debatable, was to stop this kind of shit from happening. The one thing whose stoppage we could agree would be a beneficial result is the one thing we’re now known for doing ourselves. Sure, that’s largely unfair, but that perception is reality nonetheless and we’d better deal with it face-on.
And we can’t just dismiss it as a small aberration by few low-ranking staff under too much stress, as in the “normal warfare” incidents you’re thinking of. Everything we know already, and what’s been hinted we’ll soon know more of, says it’s on a wide scale, and an inevitable result of how the war was “planned” and “managed” all the way from the top. It stems from the outsourcing of core military functions to unsupervised civilians, a Washington decision. It stems from the removal of control of prisons from the military chain of command, a Washington decision. It stems from the, let’s say, “result-oriented” interrogation process, a Washington decision. It stems from indiscrimination in the roundup and custody process, locking up the innocent on the same basis as the militant, without charges or recourse, a Washington decision. It stems from an active indifference to the situation at the highest levels (Has Rumsfeld read Taguba’s report yet? Why did Bush learn about it from TV?) There’s an attempt to scapegoat Lynndie Englund for all of this, a Washington decision, but that will surely backfire too as more comes out. No, friend, this doesn’t look like something that happened despite our government, it looks like something that our government did, more or less intentionally. gum, it isn’t hard to find an example if you want to. Srebrenica comes to mind.
Setting aside, for the moment, the whole moral and human horror, and the horrors doubtless to come, how can this man lurch from disaster to disaster without someone tapping him on the shoulder whose advice he will take?
By now so many people have predicted so many catastrophic mistakes that he has cheerfully charged into…
What the fuck will it take for him to scratch his cornpone ass and smell the coffee?
Something I heard in passing, haven’t found the source, or even if there is one, so wondering if anybody else heard this…
That the tormenting soldiers were under the “direction” of intelligence-type spooky folks. That the purpose of the excercise was to gather intelligence. That the point of that intelligence was the location of the hidden weapons of mass destruction, which simply have to be there, just cunningly concealed by die-hard dead ender Baathists…
Its so ghastly I’m not even sure I heard it, so I am not putting it up for evidence. Did anyone else? Am I suffering from Bushanoia?
the story comes from some of the mps. I think its good. My best recollection is it came in one of the talking head shows–maybe sy hersh on charlie rose, I don’t know, it’s all one big ball of sleaze by now…
I brought this to the attention of a friend of mines that fought in Viet Nam. He stated that this is the same type of media (bullsh*t) that painted so many Vietnam Vets as being “Baby-Killers” when they came home from the war.
He went on to tell me about how quickly the media will bring to the general public information about how all of our own servicemen are “mistreating” others, but hardly ever do you hear about how our own people are being treated by theirs. With his permission, I will quote the following statements from him:
Actually, the NVA practice of using children as suicide bombers was well known at the time of the Vietnam War. Could that information have been distributed by … the media? Why yes, I believe it was.
And one certainly can’t claim that nothing is being reported on enemy activities during the current conflict. With the constant refrain of ‘3 US soldiers were killed by a roadside bomb today in Iraq…’ stories it’s not like the media is ignoring it.
In short, that old vet is full of shit. He’s remembering what he WANTS to remember. And it’s not like the ‘media’ is one monolithic entity. Unless you’re big on the whole tinfoil hat thing it strains credulity to believe that all the media all covers items all the same way out of some choice.
**Interrogator/Intel Analyst Team Lead Asst.
BAGHDAD, Iraq **
(Requisition #BZSG308)
Clearance: TS
Description:
Assists the interrogation support program team lead to increase the effectiveness of dealing with Detainees, Persons of Interest, and Prisoners of War (POWs) that are in the custody of US/Coalition Forces in the CJTF 7 AOR, in terms of screening, interrogation, and debriefing of persons of intelligence value. [FONT=Times New Roman]Under minimal supervision, will assist the team lead in managing a multifaceted interrogation support cell consisting of database entry/intelligence research clerks, screeners, tactical/strategic interrogators, and intelligence analyst.[/FONT]
Starguard:
I’m sorry, but that veteran that you are quoting has obviously not been paying any fucking attention to the media reports that have been issuing forth from Iraq.
As to whether the media was responsible for Vietnam vets being painted as baby killers, I dunno. But every damned day there is a new media report about how many soldiers have been killed in Iraq (although damned few in Afghanistan; of course, our attention isn’t supposed to be focused there, but never mind) and where. And goddamnit, our soldiers are mistreating others. Doesn’t matter one iota who anally raped who first, or who made who act like a naked dog at the end of a lead. We’re supposed to be the good guys. And from what I’ve seen and what I’m told is coming, we’re sure as shit not acting like it.
And this:
Is absolute crap. And if you feel the need to tell this veteran of your acquaintance that “someone” said it, feel free to use my SN.
By Zagadka, speaking of the French: “I can’t think of a better country to turn it(the prison) over to, PR wise. It would make people stop whining in a second.”
The CIA would probably be glad to go along with you on that one. Saddam proved that they can be bribed to volate international agreements and they were willing to scam the oil for food program.
Should be relatively easy to slip 'em a few bucks to get 'em to turn their heads inside a prison.
Has this been proved yet?
Last I heard, certain mambers of the IGC had yet to let anyone else see the documents that these charges are based on. Have they been released yet?
]