I don’t know. All’s I can tell ya’ is that it was the talk on the TV and in the print news media.
Since it works with their unwillingness to take action against Saddam when he was still in clear violation of UN resolutions after the “drop dead date”, I’ll accept it as the smoking gun until final proof is out there.
I promise, if you don’t want to see it my way I won’t call you stupid.
Nope. Not unless somebody faked an e-mail interview.
You’re too late–they’ve been babbling about secret mass graves for a year now. Seriously.
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regions/world/2003/08/276043.html
Etc. Etc.
This seems to be pretty close to what Rush Limbaugh is saying:
Big deal, so was “Vince Foster was killed by Bill Clinton,” and look how bogus that proved to be.
This is Great Debates, John, and you should know better than this. Either bring some credible cites for the evil horrible corruption in the Food for Oil program, or stop spreading this piece of Republican propagandistic bullcrap.
Excuse me, but the link you gave didn’t include such mentions.
Onthe other hand, it includes this quote from Rumsfeld :
Though I’m not sure concerning the pictures and footage, on the other hand I think that the nature of the crimes commited should be disclosed. I believe the public has a right to know what’s going on exactly.
Pathetic. :rolleyes:
The Economist. Wikipedia. The Telegraph. Not to mention FNC, CNN, et cetera.
In this link, Rumsfeld is quoted as saying :
I don’t get this. How could he takes “full responsability” for such facts and not resigning? It just doesn’t make sense. If a politicain admit to “full responsility” for such actions, resignation should logicaly follow. Or else, it means he thinks he’s only vaguely, theorically responsible in some blurry way. It appears totally contradictory to me.
That sort of a hijack, and your statement was obviously an hyperbole, but why exactly would these act affect you personnally so much? There are awful things going on everyday in many places, and you aren’t personnally any more responsible for what happened in Irak than for what is happening, say, in North-Korea (well…there could have been some little things you could possibly have done to help avoiding such a situation, and that wouldn’t apply to Korea, but these would have been quite unsignificant, so it doesn’t seem to me that your responsability is seriously involved)
So why does this particular event bothers you so much?
Oh, that’s crap and you know it. I said nothing of the sort. And dammit I had to sit through some movie trailer to find out.
What I did was respond to someone who asked how we could believe our own pub (freedom, liberty, justice) by saying that it’s a damn good thing we DO believe it, whether true or not.
Or would the world be safer if the USA had all the military might in the world and the foreign policy (backed by the people) of Serbia?
Trying to make deals (or coerce) various countries into accepting not to deliver american citizens to the International Criminal Court has been an ongoing policy of the US for quite a long time. So, no, I don’t think it’s related to the issue at hand.
Especially since, as i already mentionned, this court isn’t competent, according to its own status, for the crimes commited in Irak, since Irak didn’t sign the treaty creating the court.
Oh yes I Definitely believe so. I was still a baby at the time of teh Vietnam War, but during my time in servive (82-88) I cany even begin to count the amount of times I’ve heard stories like this…I guess its true that war really has no boundaries. 
Except that you’re only part of the “we” if you actually voted for Bush. You’re responsible for your own actions, not for your neighbor’s actions. Beside, even if you voted for Bush, you couldn’t know (except if you had some special insight) that it would result in such a situation. You can only be responsible for what you reasonnably could know would happen, not for what you couldn’t have envisionned.
This thread gives me the feeling that I’m looking of the downside of american people’s tendancy to be strongly patriotic, and to self-identify with their nation. Not believing that one’s country is “better”, not having special expectations about one’s fellow citizens morals or behavior, and taking some distance with one’s country helps avoiding some displeasant awakenings.
As i already mentionned on this board a couple time, some american people should forget about the we when refering to their nation or fellow citizens, be it for the better or for the worst. You didn’t win WWII (except for ** David Simmons ** ) and you didn’t torture Irakis (without any exceptions, I hope) , and there’s no pride or shame in actions one isn’t personnaly responsible of.
I don’t know ab out special expectations, but it would be nice not to commit war crimes…
And, frankly, a lot of this could have been envisioned as the outcome of permitting W to steal the election.
Speaking of war crimes, it may not be generally known that the mortar attacks on Abu Ghraib a few weeks ago that had everyone scratching their heads were apparantly the response by the mujaheddin to the entreaties of their wives and daughters for an end to their status as sexual slaves.
We’re a little below special expectations here, ya feel me?
Firstly, I have to wonder why any of you even bother posting anything.
I just don’t get why you even bother to post on a forum where 98% of you are leftists, you base your arguments on “allegations”, you make tin-foil conspiratorial comments about “stolen elections”, assert as fact that “every time you catch something, it has happened 100 more times without you knowing about it”.
You guys are like a lesson in propaganda/immature debating. None of you care about the facts, all of you just seem to care about bleeding your hearts out about how “evil” the United States is.
If you all agree with each other, just stop posting, really. There’s no point to waste bandwidth engaging in intellectual masturbation with each other.
Typical SDope thread:
1st Post: Hey, I hate the United States!
2nd Post: Indeed, we must all hate the United States!
3rd Post: Well yes, but maybe…
4th Post: Lol someone trying to be slightly unbiased, lets insult them, and then point to som non-germaine fact about how 100 people did something that we never heard about and never had proof of it happening.
OH and Bush stole the election.
Then go on for about three pages with people agreeing with the 1st poster.
So, nothing on-topic to contribute, eh? No interest in debating any of the people you disagree with?
Mighty cowardly of you, Marty.
herewith full cut and paste–don’t know why link didn’t worl.
‘US soldiers abused young girl at Iraqi prison’
7.17PM, Fri May 7 2004
The US military has said it will investigate claims by a former inmate of Abu Ghraib prison that a girl as young as 12 was stripped and beaten by military personnel.
Suhaib al-Baz, a journalist for the al-Jazeera television network, claims to have been tortured at the prison, based west of Baghdad, while held there for 54 days.
Mr al-Baz was arrested when reporting clashes between insurgents and coalition forces in November.
He said: "They brought a 12-year-old girl into our cellblock late at night. Her brother was a prisoner in the other cells.
"She was naked and screaming and calling out to him as they beat her. Her brother was helpless and could only hear her cries. This affected all of us because she was just a child.
The allegations cannot be verified independently but Mr al-Baz maintains psychological and physical violence were commonplace in the jail.
He also claims that a father and his 15-year-old son were tortured in front of his cell.
He said: "They made the son carry two jerry cans full of water. An American soldier had a stick and when he stopped, he would beat him.
"He collapsed so they stripped him and poured cold water over him. They brought a man who was wearing a hood. They pulled it off. The son was shocked to see it was his father and collapsed.
"When he recovered, he now saw his father dressed in women’s underwear and the Americans laughing at him.
Mr al-Baz claims the guards at the prison were keen to take photographs of the abuse and turned it into a competition.
"They were enjoying taking photographs of the torture. There was a daily competition to see who could take the most gruesome picture.
"The winner’s photo would be stuck on a wall and also put on their laptop computers as a screensaver.
“I had a good opinion of the Americans but since my time in prison, I’ve changed my mind. In Iraq we still have no freedom or democracy. They are so cruel to us.”
The International Committee of the Red Cross has said Iraqis held by US forces have been subjected to systematic degrading treatment, sometimes close to torture, that may have been officially condoned.
The ICRC said visits to detention centres in Iraq between March and November 2003 had turned up violations of international treaties on prisoners of war.
The ICRC, whose reports on prison visits are confidential, went public with some of its findings after parts of the 24-page document were carried by the Wall Street Journal.
The scandal over detainee abuse broke last week with the release of photographs showing the sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib.
US Defecse Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has taken responsibility for the incidents and apologised to the victims, the Iraqi people and America
sorry this one
ore Photos, Videos in Iraq Abuse Scandal-Rumsfeld
Fri May 7, 2:53 PM ET
Add Top Stories - Reuters to My Yahoo!
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The abuse scandal at Abu Ghraib prison includes more photographs and videos that are potentially worse than the photos shown around the world of smiling American soldiers next to naked Iraqi prisoners in humiliating positions, U.S. officials said on Friday.
Reuters Photo
AFP
Slideshow: Abuse of Iraq Prisoners Investigated
Latest headlines:
·
Pentagon OK’d Harsh Prison Techniques at Guantanamo
Reuters - 29 minutes ago
·
General Blames Abuse on Poor Leadership
AP - 32 minutes ago
·
US lawmaker, ex-army lawyer says civilian command refused to send him to Iraq
AFP - 35 minutes ago
Special Coverage
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, at a Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites) hearing, said there were many more photos and videotapes that had not been published showing cruel and sadistic acts by U.S. personnel.
“I’ve said today that there are a lot more photographs and videos that exist. If these are released to the public, obviously it’s going to make matters worse. That’s just a fact,” Rumsfeld said.
“I mean I looked at them last night and they’re hard to believe,” he said. "And if they’re sent to some news organization and taken out of the criminal prosecution
channels that they’re in, that’s where we’ll be. And it’s not a pretty picture."
The photographs published so far have shown naked Iraqi prisoners piled on top of each other. One prisoner is shown with a leash around his neck held by a female American soldier, and one has women’s underwear over his head.
Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican, asked Rumsfeld during the hearing whether he had seen the video. Rumsfeld said he had not seen it.
"Apparently the worst is yet to come potentially in terms of disturbing
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~6439~2135248,00.html
e did not elaborate, but a Senate aide, speaking on condition of anonymity, said senators have been told videotapes are believed to exist showing rape and the corpses of what are possibly murder victims. The tapes were described in an additional part of an investigative report. The Pentagon has not yet submitted that additional part of the report to senators, the aide sai
I’m beginning to have a bad feeling about this.
I wonder if the “inappropriate acts with a dead body: the rape and the murder involve the same victim…”
I’m just sayin’…
before you go calling me a pussy, and a soft hearted liberal, I just want to say tht I really do think snuff flicks are a whole different category of evil, and you can call me a fuzzy thinker if you like–I’m not willing to walk you through the reasoning.
If you don’t get it, you don’t want to . Trust me.
Get used to it Martin Hyde - there are plenty three and four page giant circle jerks on this board, just like this one. After awhile you just read 'em - understand that there really isn’t anything being said, then move on.