Absolutely, and the 80,000 people all said that they were impressed 160,000 could fit, but TRUMP made it work ! Believe me, nobody could have drawn 320,000 overnight like that. It’s true. It’s true.
As for optimism… I remain doubtful. I’m somewhat optimistic Trump won’t get a second term (because even Americans are not THAT stupid. We’ll call Bush 2 a mulligan) but he’s not a cause. He’s a symptom of a disease that is wider than the US and that, unlike what I’d been hoping for the past 20 years or so isn’t just a question of doddering old assholes who can’t fucking die soon enough.
No, there are plenty of eager new fascists to replace the old, in Europe as much as in the US. And I have no idea why. I thought we were making token progress.
…yep. I saw that post immediately after mine and went “Holy shit.” Another dog-whistle. With obvious plausible deniability.
That video is disturbing today for a number of reasons. One reason is the absolute delight, apparently orgiastic delight, one of the “Hitler youth” on stage has when the protestor is getting the daylights beaten out of him. Next is the repetition of “Jewish-controlled” whatever. The crowd was eating that up. Of course the demonization of the press is somethign Trump copies on a moment by moment basis.
I did find myself wondering, though, how many of those bastards found themselves in the US Armed Forces after the US entered WWII. Oh, and a fun thing was noticing all the German signage. I thought those bastards hated foreigners.
Rebound. History is a line, but like any transitory it’s more of an up and down and up and down wave than a straight line. Any social change in one direction will be followed by another one in the opposite, which will most definitely be of the same size as the first but also not necessarily smaller.
True, but the answer in both cases is : try again, try harder ; not “oh well, we tried”. If anything, personally a complete failure to impeach (especially if due to Republican obstructing), or impeachement passing but doing diddly squat (which I’m aware it wouldn’t) would get me off my arse to vote in a hurry. Whereas the opposition just doing ladeeda (but deploring, but there’s nothing to do, and…; or worse posturing but taking no risk whatsoever) would be a lot more discouraging.
I really doubt that one. Even the most foolish must surely realize that Trump is something else, and orders of magnitudes more depraved than even Nixon (NIXON !) - some just cheer that and fuck them where they live ; and those who don’t even realize are presumably suspended in a vat of primal Fox News goo and would never vote Democrat in a million years anyway.
I may well be wrong - I wouldn’t have bet a wooden nickel on Trump getting elected in the first place soooo…
I don’t think there’s no possible downside. But neither you nor I can read the future. So in our perpetual blindness and doubt we do what’s right, and hope for the best.
And if Trump isn’t a reasonable approximation of what your Founders had in mind when they thought to include an impeachement process in the whole deal, who the hellfuck is ? Actual Satan in Imperial Japanese garb, trampling over screaming babies on a radioactive chariot made of puppy bones ?
It’s not even that he’s racist, and it’s not that he’s incompetent, and it’s not that he’s an ornery asshole, and it’s not that he’s a blithering idiot - former Presidents have been all that, in various combinations. It’s that he lies, all the time, about everything no matter how unimportant ; it’s that he actively, deliberately erodes every single one of your institutions (and good luck restoring trust in them…) ; and is ultimately solely concerned about the trough he and his cronies are elbow deep in. He doesn’t give one shit about the country, or its laws, or the future, or people. He only cares about himself and his money. And the worst part is ? It’s not even *money *money, because he’s too unimaginative to come up with ambitious cons, too timorous for truly heroic bribery. So he contents himself with making the Secret Service or lobbyists pay for their rooms at Mar-A-Lago and penny-ante shit of that nature. It’s fucking pathetic.
And **none **of that would have flown if W. Bush had done it, or Obama had done it, or anyone else. He’s openly pissing on over half the country (something that, again, even W. Bush with his own set of lies and his own partisan GOP never did). So… what are y’all waiting for ? What are you guys *doing *? Do you think he, his cronies, his electorate will just go away ? That his manure will just cleanly wash away overnight if only he’s beaten in 2020 ?
I know it’s just akin to Teach threatening to put a black dot next to your name on the blackboard. On its own it accomplishes nothing. It’s just a symbol. But some symbols are necessary. Not everything can be politickal manoeuvering ; calculated, cynical vote-counting and hog trading. Because it’s cynical vote-counting and hog trading that give rise to monsters they thought they could control, or wouldn’t do too much harm and would placate hoi polloi. I know that invoking Hitler… but still, y’know. Hitler. Or Franco if you prefer. Trump is bad enough, what if the next cunt is just as racist, just as cruel, just as corrupt but has a brain in his head, a basic understanding of subtlety or subterfuge ?
And, like it or not, this shit matters beyond the borders of the US because there are toooons of fevered little egos around the world who are going “wait… wait, you can actually DO that ? And get *away *with it ?!”. And they grow bolder, more openly brown-shirtier all the time. Because… well yeah, apparently, you can actually do that.
I don’t want that “new normal” to spread. At all. Help me out.
Well, that’s the point, innit?
The Dems in congress ARE trying. It’s not Impeachment or Nothing. There’s more than two options here. I’ll admit impeachment is the most dramatic and the option that is most like a Hollywood thriller. But it’s also probably the option that produces the least actual results.
There’s the options they are already pursing, which include investigations, hearings, etc. So far, this has led to the resignations, departures, and prosecutions of more than a few scumbags and will lead to even more.
Sure, that’s not the flashiest method but it’s the one that’s been producing real results.
That’s not the opposition doing la-dee-da. It’s the opposition not acting like drama queens.
I think you are missing the point here. It’s not just about changing the mind of voters. It’s about who shows up (or not) to vote in the first place.
A failed impeachment may embolden Trump voters who may have otherwise stayed at home. It may also cause anti-Trump voters who may have come out to vote to stay at home instead.
Trump will not win the popular vote. He didn’t in 2016 and won’t in 2020. He’ll lose the popular vote by millions of votes. But that doesn’t matter. The 2016 election actually hinged on 70-80000 net votes in a few key states - battleground states which tend to be more receptive to Trump than you would think.
So, yes, these kinds of small margins based on who shows up (or not) is important. That’s not a lot of votes. Maybe impeachment proceedings end up making the difference either way. That’s not something to take lightly. It’s well and good for individual members of Congress to pontificate - they only have to appease their own constituents. But party leadership has to think more nationally than that.
It may be, but they also had in mind that the President wouldn’t have so much power. What they envisioned and what actually came to pass are two entirely different things.
Impeachment, as actually implemented, has been entirely a political ploy the only times it’s been used. The only time it may have worked, the jackass resigned before it was too late.
Nah, W could have gotten away with it too but he’s not a terrible excuse for a human being.
Sure, symbols are important. But if the end result is that he gets away with it, that symbolic gesture may backfire. I’m not saying it may not be worth it, but I’m saying it’s not exactly as simple a decision as you are making out. You have a lot more faith in Americans than I do. That’s a credit to your faith in humanity, but it may also end up being terribly naive.
Could be. Impeachment still doesn’t stop that. The brown shirts in the US (and elsewhere) are ALREADY emboldened. The next guy well could be just as racist, corrupt, and cruel but competent instead.
Again, probably a difference in the level of cynicism. I think there are only two viable solutions. One is a wave of national violence or global conflict that results in something once again approximating the post-war peace (well, mostly peace) we enjoyed after WWII. Another is the slow, steady building of votes from the ground up. Guess which one I fear is the only realistic option.
In the meantime, rather than the circus of an impeachment, the best option appears to be the one that’s currently being employed - keep the pressure up on all his enablers and toadies. Several are in prison and others are hiding. He himself is feeling the pressure. Bring all that filth to light, as has been done to this point. It’s not flashy or dramatic, but it’s producing results.
Personally, I actually am in favor of getting those articles of impeachment out there - in January or February. Distract that jackass with a million headlines and leaks and revelations and Congressional hearings while he’d prefer to be on the campaign trail. Do it now, and it does end up being symbolic - that you can get away with it and the opposition can do little more than whine and throw hissy fits.
Really, it all depends on how the criminal contempt charges against Barr and Ross play out. That’s the second-biggest gun the House has, and if it fails in the courts or Trump declares it all executive whatever, there’s nothing left to do.
And frankly, selfishly, I want to see the result for good or ill. Because if (when) McConnell blocks a motion (can he do that with impeachment?) or the Senate acquits, and somehow that unholy fascist is elected again, we’ll know what country we live in. I’m single, childless, and old, and Ecuador is calling. (Yeah, yeah, South American politics. At least it’s cheap and beautiful.)
McConnell cannot block the motion in the House, of course. I wouldn’t have said he could choose not to have a trial in the Senate, but I would have said the same thing about voting on the president’s choice for the Supreme Court, as well. Even if he lets the trial proceed in the Senate, I gather there’s various things he can (and will) do to limit discussion a great deal. And of course, with the Senate in [del]fascist[/del] Republican hands, Trump is highly unlikely to be convicted.
My opinion on the practicality of going through all this, despite there being almost no chance of conviction, is stated above.
…most definitely NOT be of the same size as the first…
What a difference a little word can make!
kobal2 was using “voter” to mean “people who have the right to vote”, not “registered voters” or “people who actually go vote” (says my crystal ball, based on these two meanings respectively not existing and rarely being used, in France). He’s not talking only about shifting votes from one party or one candidate to another but also of shifting them from “didn’t go vote” to “actually moved arse off chair”.
That ship has long since sailed, hit an iceberg, sunk, and had a James Cameron film made about it. It’s a common right-wing trope, along with “It’s Obama’s fault there’s all this racism”.
While it comes as no surprise that Trump and his supporters are racist shitwipes, the response from American voters in 2020 is going to speak volumes. I wish I could predict in which way.
That I was ! You can put a notch on your crystal ball 
Check out the lovely Betsy Ross flags behind the stage…
Eh, it’s not so much that I have faith in humanity ; it’s that I *have *to else I’ll go (more) insane.
I don’t think it’s an either/or. But more importantly, I don’t believe diligent, sensible, steady grinding out of the limelight suffices. Like it or not, and for good or ill, people react a lot more to fire-and-brimstone orators lighting a fire in their belly. Sincerity in politics is admittedly rarer than ugliness among baby seals ; but we *remember *those guys - and sometimes their idealism (…or just rhetorical prowess) even achieves results.
Failure to hold Trump accountable for impeachable offenses may embolden Trump voters who may have otherwise stayed at home. It may also cause anti-Trump voters who may have come out to vote to stay at home instead.
Democrats should stop worrying about what Trumptards might think, and do the right thing.
I don’t buy either of these. One of my axioms of politics is this: Republican voters ALWAYS turn out to vote EVERY SINGLE TIME. They will vote for their tribe come hell or high water. They cannot be energized because they always are energized.
I don’t buy that the opposition will be demobilized by a failed impeachment. The hearings will put it all out there. For many people, all they know about the Mueller Report was what Donald’s personal lawyer summed up in his disgraceful four page book report. Putting hearings on television every day will move the needle.
I first read that as a one-L lama and thought, there’s no way they would put 100 peaceniks-of-color on stage with him. Then I saw the second L and realized that 100 woolly-headed pack animals sounded more realistic.
At least with llamas, the wool is outside the head.
And why aren’t the lamestream media reporting how he fed the 450,000 attendees with five loaves and two fishes?
And this is where the disconnect is.
Mueller is set to testify in front of Congress soon. That did not require impeachment proceedings. What exactly is an impeachment now, in July 2019, itself going to add to this testimony save possibly a distraction with the other rigamarole that occurs?
I’m not against taking action, but it has to make sense.
What, exactly, is the right thing? An almost purely symbolic gesture that may or may not mobilize some people? The tedious, boring work that is already going on that may or may not turn some people off by how frustratingly slowly it goes?
We have this pretense that the “right” thing (however you define this) and the effective thing are one and the same. Are they? Is the perfect (impeachment, followed by removal) the enemy of the good (delay impeachment, keep sending flunkies to jail, eat away bit by bit)? If I could magically guarantee that the impeachment process would have negative consequences, would that symbolic stand still be worth it? Apparently so, according to some posters, for the enervating effect it would have on the American public and worldwide.
But again, it’s not Impeachment Now or Bust. The ‘Bust’ includes impeachment later, continued prosecutions, and hearings.
The only example we have is Nixon. No matter how we remember it now, 50 years after the fact, it did literally take years to bring him down. The process played out in the boring, tedious manner of investigations and slowly chipping away at the corruption. It wasn’t via the impeachment process. By the point impeachment became viable, the writing was already on the wall. One problem is that it’s even worse now. The Republicans are even more intransigent now than then (recall several of them still backed Nixon back then and in the decades after).
For whatever reason, we recall it taking much less time and being a much less tortured, political process than it actually was.
You’re right Antibob that the process took a long time to play out back in the '70s. The difference is that that was one crime and a coverup, whereas this is an on-going and ever-accelerating dismantling of our society and our form of governance.