There you go making assumptions.
There may not be a next day.
IMO, no it isn’t. Fuck him. “Manipulating” him would give his talk of successful efforts credence; he needs to be denied this. He needs to be isolated and irrelevant, as much as possible.
Let me put it to you this way: did the GOP follow your strategy from 2009-2017? Did their strategy give them complete control of the government?
You cannot deal with a narcissist and/or a bully as you would with other people. The Democrats need to stop being weak or they will continue to fail. They already showed in 2016 that they don’t understand the mood or the inclinations of a huge sector of the American public; they need to reverse that.
No, not really. All a compromise will do in this case is give legitimacy to Trump and his ilk. Every small success that they have makes the next one easier; every small win only reinforces their ideology. Every time the Democrats compromise, they reduce their standing and increase their opponents’.
Just this year alone, I can list two times Democrats compromised/caved when the GOP never would have, and the result is that the GOP won both times. First time was in Virginia, the 2nd time was the shutdown.
FIGHT FOR SOMETHING, DDAMMIT! STOP GIVING IN!
I don’t think that Obama was as easily manipulated and distracted by shiny objects.
If the compromise is he does what we want him to do, and he thinks it was his idea, then I see that that helps the democrats, not hurts them. They get the things they want, they show that the things that they want work, and all they are giving up is “credit”, and I don’t really care who gets credit.
That is because the republicans are willing to harm the american people in order to get what they want, and the democrats are not. I don’t want to see the democrats start taking the same attitude as the republicans in those regards.
We can do that too. Manipulating the shitgibbon president is not mutually exclusive for fighting for what you believe in.
Right, and it becomes the new normal. Every depth he sinks to whittles away at something and can we get it back?
And here I fully expected Trump’s dick to not be there. Oh, weel…
This response it out of character for you; are you trying to be funny?
You fucking well should care: people are gonna vote again on his candidacy in 2020. Why will people vote against him if he’s able, as President, to get good things done?
Then stop enabling the America-hating fuckstick. How in fuck is doing anything that reflects positively on Donald Trump a good idea for the Democratic Party? Are you under the illusion that the GOP no longer controls the political discussions in this country? 
No, you can’t and yes, in some cases, it is; this is one of those cases.
I ask you again: did the GOP pursue a strategy of placation and compromise with Obama for 8 years? Did they get what they want? Did they give much, if anything, away? Did they compromise?
Right now, the American public does not like compromise. There is no virtue seen in giving up or knuckling under or bowing to pressure. Democrats need to learn this or they will continue losing.
I don’t think the GOP ever argued that tax cuts would save Wal-Mart jobs, just that they would encourage some companies (like Apple, for instance) to repatriate money here. Wal-Mart’s closures probably have more to do with the changing nature of commerce. I don’t consider myself a Wal-Mart apologist, but if a move such as this one can make Wal-Mart a little leaner and more versatile, it could mean that a company like Wal-Mart avoids becoming a dinosaur like many of the competitors it destroyed on its way up. It might even mean slightly higher wages for the employees they’re able to retain. I have no problem with that.
I actually listened to his speech (my wife listened to it, i just overheard it). I have to say: he almost sounded like he was over the age of 18.
Not sure. Wasn’t trying to go for a gravitas award or nothing, but I felt the comment was in line.
Let me back up slightly, I was indicating that appealing to trump’s ego and flattering him in order to manipulate him is not an invalid strategy. You asked why the republicans didn’t do this 2009-2016.
I was comparing Obama to Trump here. Obama was not going to be swayed by flattery and such, but trump can be.
Having a country where good things get done is its own reward, regardless of who gets the credit.
I don’t care if he is in office till 2024, if he implements the policies that I would like him to implement.
(not that I wouldn’t rather have a more competent and liberal president take over starting say, 1 year 7 days ago, but we have to work with what we have)
Like I said, I want what is best for the country, not the party.
The democratic party currently much more closely represents the values that I hold, and so I support it, but I don’t have a suicide pact with it or anything.
And in any case, if he does get manipulated, then that’s not enabling, that’s controlling.
The fact that the GOP does control the political discussions amongst low information and partisan voters is a problem, but repeating complex and nuanced policy wonk stuff to them louder isn’t going to help. What is needed is short pithy soundbites that put democrats in a positive light, and preferably some that put republicans in a poor light.
Democrats have the disadvantage there, obviously, in that republicans say “Make America Great Again”, and get cheers, and when democrats try to explain how to make America great again, they get snores. Then follows the accusations that they never addressed the problems that are facing americans or proposing solutions. When you point out to them exactly where in their speech they spoke specifically about the problems and solutions, you find that they have dozed off again.
Maybe, maybe not. Hard to say without trying.
Not much, but once again, it was not as if the administration at that point was nearly as susceptible to manipulation and flattery as the current one.
In any case, I disliked the republicans not only because I found myself disagreeing with their ideology, but because they were obstructing the business of governing.
If democrats actually start obstructing the business of governing, then they are not much better themselves.
That’a valid strategy to try as well. Unfortunately, the people that don’t like compromise the most are the ones who are pretty well dedicated to the conservative. Liberals actually seem to be big fans of compromise, when compromise is not the same as capitulation.
Trump is not the only one who is susceptible to flattery. So are his voters. That’s why fox news always tries to make viewers feel good about themselves. I hate fox news, and I still feel a bit of appreciation when they tell me how smart and wonderful I am for watching their news. When I watch MSNBC, they may be more informative, but not only are they more boring, they don’t really seem to appreciate me as much, they don’t tell me how much better MSNBC viewers are than those who watch other channels.
I don’t think that the closing of stores has anything to do with the tax cut either.
But at the same time, I don’t think that the bonuses and raises were caused by the tax cut.
Can’t link to it yet because it was said (on Joy Reid’s MSNBC show) only this morning, but: Lawrence O’Donnell is saying that every time Democrats are asked to agree to a budget that includes money for The Wall, they should reply: ‘No, because Mexico will pay for the wall.’
This would force Trump and congressional Republicans to say, for the record: ‘Mexico will not be paying for the wall–U.S. taxpayers must pay for it.’
It would be good to get all of them on the record, telling taxpayers that they’re on the hook for Trump’s wall.
Ah, here’s the problem: No, I didn’t ask that. Why would I ask that? Why would I ask something that has no bearing on reality? The issue isn’t manipulating the president, it’s compromising. Read thru my responses: you’ll find scant talk of the morals of manipulating him and a whole lot of talk about not compromising. In fact, considering just the all-caps part you quoted, it’s really hard to believe you didn’t get that.
Yeah;now I get that you’re off having your own conversation.
[/quote]
Have you lost your mind?
All evidence says ‘yes’…
Holy fuck NO WE DON’T HAVE TO WORK WITH WHAT WE HAVE! Did the GOP work with what they had? NO! And now they’re in control of the country; why do you think that is? Do you think the public punished them for the refusal to compromise during the Obama years?
What is best for the country is to get rid of this moronic demagogue and the people who enable him. If you disagree with that statement, or want to append it with a “but”, then we’re gonna have to agree that we disagree.
No idea what this is about and so I’ll leave it alone.
Don’t be ridiculous.
How do you think giving the GOP legislative victories achieves that goal? IMO it has exactly the opposite effect; look at how the Dems look after the shutdown: weak; they caved in; the GOP got what it wanted and the Dems got vague promises (from people that we know don’t keep their promises).
Again: the issue for me isn’t the manipulation, it’s the compromise.
Reasons matter. That’s why we fight wars and still think we’re the good guys, eh.
Now I can agree that his voters should be manipulated and that this is a normal part of the democratic process. Unfortunately, you’re saying that the oppositions propaganda has had a positive effect on you; you know this consciously but don’t appear very motivated to act to stop it.
My overall beef with the Democratic Party right now is this: stop being weak, stop giving in, stop rationalizing. Stand up, stay strong and stay committed.
^ This.
Refusing to take a stand on anything, stating in public without a hint of shame that the reason they immediately caved on the shutdown without getting anything was that “there’s an election coming up,” and by in general being completely useless, is why the Democrats have lost 1,000 seats in the last decade and will continue losing.
I don’t care about your re-election anymore, when you avowedly won’t do anything your voters want once you’re elected, because your only interest is in getting re-elected, not fighting for anything. The Democrats are going to become the Whigs of the 21st Century if they continue on the path they’re on. The progressive movement, independents, and the fractured left will eventually coalesce into a viable third party that actually does take a stand on something, and by that point even if the DNC does grow a spine, it’ll be far too late to save themselves.
I don’t either.
It’s a way to make Wal-Mart a little more competitive in a tightening talent market. Wal-Mart seems to be trying to compete with Amazon in creating an online/face-to-face shopping ecosystem. That means more deliveries and fewer in-person shopping stores, but they want consumers to have a better experience when they visit Wal-Mart. For years, Wal-Mart was the place where you’d walk in and find nobody on the floor to help, and in some cases, nobody around to help you check out either. Nobody wants to work for peanuts now that more jobs are opening up. They know they can’t get away with being dirt cheap anymore. They’re getting squeezed on all sides by Costco, Target, and Amazon - they’re trying to fight back.
Both of you are right. But it’s beside the point, because you’re being logical. Logic, reason, and causality aren’t in play anymore. Somewhere on this thread or elsewhere on the board, someone who works at Wal-Mart got a raise and gave credit to thump. “He delivered!” This poster ignored the closing of the 63 Sam’s stores. That’s what I’m talkin’ about. Reality doesn’t matter; it’s what people think is real.
I think it’s increasingly difficult (for both Repubs and Dems) to maintain the big tent party. The thing is, Democrats and Republicans actually have done a lot of what their voters want – voters in their districts. But voters in a Democratic district in California and New York may not look like Democratic voters in Montana. If you’re a New York liberal, you can’t just excommunicate a Democratic colleague who doesn’t vote with you on healthcare reform or minimum wage. But I see the frustrations reaching a boiling point, and I could see intra-party fighting that could crack up either party.
I still wouldn’t. We all know that the likelihood of him admitting defeat is about as likely as me getting my head around the vaguely terrifying cricket threads in GR, but even if he did own it, that would in no way dampen my desire to see no money wasted on the wall.
Even if he implements several policies I approve of, just the fact alone about the nuclear option makes me wish he was out of the office as soon as possible.
Might be funny to see Democrats propose legislation for matching funds, i.e. they’ll authorize a dollar for every dollar Mexico donates. It’ll be like a PBS pledge drive.
He’s already walked that promise back, sort of. Mexico will pay for the wall … with increased tariffs. Or decreased sales of illegal drugs. Or … something. In any event Trump’s promise is more valid than ever. #MAGA. #RapeHateKill. #GodBlessAmerica.