“Read my lips: no new taxes”. Heh.
Then one of us is not understanding the other.
I said,
To which you replied.
Maybe we are talking past each other, but I cannot parse that in a way that is not you (rhetorically) asking me if the GOP followed the strategy of manipulating Obama through flattery.
The response to the actual question that I see asked there, that of “Why would this be a valid strategy with trump, when it was not a strategy that was attempted by republicans?” is that trump is far more easily manipulated than Obama was, hence my (somewhat facetious) comment about shiny objects.
Compromise is not capitulation. Compromise is important and necessary for a functioning democracy.
I’m really not sure where we missed eachother, but it does certainly seem as though we are not having the same conversation.
Ummm, no. Are you saying that who gets credit for getting good things done is more important than getting good things done?
What good is it to get a democratic majority in 2020, if by that point, the dreamers are all deported, ACA is gutted, the economy is cratered, our standing in the world has plummeted, our news media is non-functional, and our elections are compromised?
I would like you to point out where I said that we should compromise in the initial rounds of our conversation that has caused you to so lash out here. I said nothing about compromise, I only spoke of flattery.
Letting trump think that something is his idea is not compromise, it is manipulation.
I agree that getting rid of him is very important… BUT, not at all costs.
If the cost of getting rid of him is no longer having a functioning democracy, then that’s too high a price.
You are correct, that if you don’t think that there is any price too high to pay to get him out of office, then we will need to agree to disagree on that.
I’m not so sure what I said that is confusing there. I align with the democrats because they represent my interests and values much more closely than the republicans do.
I do not choose my interests and values because of what the democrats represent.
Not sure what is ridiculous about the fact that if you are manipulating someone, that that is different from enabling them. They are two different and nearly entirely exclusive actions.
It is not giving the GOP legislative victories to tell trump that the idea that he was given was actually his idea.
I have no idea where you are getting this from.
And I said nothing about compromise in the post that prompted you to go off on me, only manipulation.
And I still maintain that compromise is actually a necessary part of a healthy democracy. Compromise != capitulation.
Which the democrats are doing a poor job of. They lay out rational logical explanations that rational logical people can follow and come to the conclusion that voting for the democrat is in both the country and the individual’s best interest.
When they do that, conservative voters take it as an insult, and vote for the other party.
Reason and logic does not work on these people. Flattery might.
No, that’s not what I am saying. I am saying that I am aware of the manipulation that right wing media does to its audience. I am not manipulated when they tell me how smart I am for watching it, I am just saying that I notice the attempts to play on my emotions.
I am not sure what methods you would entail to stop fox news and other right wing media from spreading its propaganda. Much as I don’t like how they abuse it, that sort of thing is a consequence of free speech.
If you can’t beat them, join them? The “left wing*” media could adopt a similar approach. Telling its viewers how smart they are for watching MSNBC, but I think most current viewers would notice and not appreciate the manipulation.
Almost need a whole new network without the partisan baggage. A “liberal network for conservative thinkers”, however that would play out.
My beef with the democratic party is that it seems everything they do causes them to lose more votes. They depend on the republican elected officials being terrible and advocating terrible policies, which they do, but also depend on the public noticing, which they don’t.
*I put “left wing” in quotes because it compromises pretty much everything to the left of fox, including the giant swath of moderates down the middle.
Keep in mind, this whole thing started over trump thinking that schumer’s idea was actually his idea. That was all I responded to, that if letting him think that it was his idea is what it takes to get him on board, then let him think it was his idea. All this other stuff about being weak, giving in, rationalizing and all had nothing to do with it.
I’m not looking for a fight here, we are on the same side. We are just discussing strategy and tactics here, not ideology or partisanship. I would certainly not say that using flattery to manipulate both trump and his supporters is the only strategy to use, but it should be one that we are willing to pull out of our arsenal when appropriate.
Just the Dems? Repubs too. They just refuse to admit it. They keep muttering some bullshit about “grownups controlling him”. blah blah. They’re as bad as he is fer chrissake.
Everything has to be his idea …
Provided it was a good idea and he expended no effort himself.
Just as all his own bad stupid ideas get pinned on someone else.
He takes all credit and no blame. Ever. He is never wrong. Ever.
He’s fucking toxic. We should not have to suck up to a raging narcissist this way, just to get shit done.
And fuck his wall too.
… Like!..
Godwin time…
Who else made “deals”, never intending to honor them? Who thought to “appease” him?
“Peace in our time” - Neville Chamberlian
You can NOT make deals with someone whose own word was never worth a damn. You end up with nothing. The fucker BRAGS about that.
QFT.
You know what else Chamberlain did while trying to keep peace? He built up the military. If he had gone to war earlier, it would have been with the bi-planes and other WWI equipment that was left over from the disarmament. Going to war before being prepared for the war would have meant defeat.
And I did not say make deals with him, I said deal with him as is, as in: this is the situation, the situation cannot be changed, so you have to deal with the situation as it is.
Sure, work to change the situation in the present and in the future. Work on removing him from office through impeachment or or convincing him to resign or some other legal method, and more importantly, work on swaying voters to our side to vote him out in 2020 along with much of congress starting in 2018.
But, as long as he is in office, that is just a fact that does need to be dealt with, not ignored.
The fact that he is so stupid and easily swayed is something that can be used to our advantage. That is all I am saying.
k9 - There comes a time that compromising with a lunatic that has a gun to your head is not a good way to proceed. You must do your best to keep him off balance until you can reach the fireplace poker and pummel him to death with it.
Otherwise, you get to live with an armed lunatic.
This is where the country is right now.
“Diplomacy is the art of saying ‘Nice doggie!’ until you can find a rock.” - Will Rogers
Once again, manipulate, not compromise.
“Wow, that’s a pretty nice gun! Must be the best gun ever. I am so lucky to have such a wonderful great fabulous gun up to my head. You are so smart, and you have such an incredible gun, that you must be planning on shooting yourself in the foot with it! Only the smartest people with the very best guns are able to do that!”
We got CHIP reauthorization. That’s not nothing. And if agreeing to spend money on a wall that’s not going do anything will keep the Dreamers in the country, well, we’ve wasted money on worse things.
I agree to do the best with what you have. But VERY much disagree that we should have to settle for manipulation of the freaking highest office in the land (if not world). This should NOT become the new normal or standard that we live with.
No compromise, no manipulation (have you seen his administration and how they are manipulating him??)
What should we do when the next President is the same or worse? He must go NOW. We have the legal means to do so, but the craven republican congress is more concerned with lining their pockets.
I am not a religious person, but pray to god that he is not assassinated or dies in office. I want congress to back the constitution and get rid of him. It’s the only way that this country can look itself in the mirror and know that we did the right thing.
This is the crux of the paradox. We have seen some evidence that the second-string QB is more than slightly competent. Taking the hapless buffoon out at this point could well be problematic if his replacement can make coherent sentence things and skillfully evade the Russian controversy. We are kind of stuck in a bad place here, where the answer to it, in the near term, looks like it could be much worse.
Any US politician that authorizes an American dime to be spent on that wall is a politician that I will vote against at the first opportunity.
But what would you suggest? I say cut off the head of the snake. Let the chips fall where they may, and work with that.
We should not allow this travesty to continue. We must show that this is simply not acceptable, or it will happen again.
So when Trump crows to the public about how it was his idea and he made it happen… what? Are you thinking that the POTUS can be manipulated and kept ignorant of the manipulation, while the general public knows about it, so Trump’s claims will ring hollow?
No, the public would eat it up and vote for him again: “just look at all the good things that even Democrats like that Trump did!”
Your thoughts here, IMO, are misguided and are sacrificing long-term stability for (possible) short-term gain. You’re going to have to come up with some pretty fantastic arguments to make me believe that for every potential decent thing Trump might do in office, he wouldn’t have already done at least 20 bad things and so the prospect of a second term isn’t that bad an idea. Frankly, I don’t think such an argument can be made, but I’ll read it if you try.
And note, it’s not just about getting rid of Trump: we need to make sure as little gets damaged as possible while he’s still in office. Can’t do that if we’re just letting him do what he wants and right now, Trump and the GOP are doing whatever they want.
I second that. I hope that ALL republicans that are up in 2018 are replaced with democrats or unaffiliated. Be it a mayor, county commissioner or sheriff.
That may show congress that trump is not a good horse to bet on.
You are right, we shouldn’t. And showing the voters how poor of a choice that they made is really about the only method we have of removing him and preventing this sort of thing from happening again.
Yeah, that’s why I want us to get in on the action.
Same thing we are doing now. Dealing with the situation as best we can while also working to change it.
In another thread, I indicated what I want for my birthday, and I certainly don’t mind if it come early.
And that is a concern as well. In some ways, pence is better. I would be a bit less worried about a nuclear war getting started because of spilled milk.
OTOH, I do oppose pretty much everything pence stands for, and he would probably make more headway in getting his ideology implemented that trump can.
Really best bet, take the house in 2018, then take down both trump and pence at once, installing the now democratic speaker of the house as president.
I think that option comes with a free pony.
If your option is to vote for an incumbent democrat who voted for the wall in return for a permanent fix for DACA, vs a new republican who would vote for the wall because he is a racist, are you going to hold to that?
Trump ran up and down this country promising that he’s going to build a lunatic wall on the border, and Mexico was going to pay for it. Insane, and it was called so at the time. Fast forward, where are we now? American fucking Democrats are offering to help pay for it?? Anyone still in disbelief at Trump’s “Master Negotiator” label?
Democrats are offering to pay for it? No fucking way.
Yeah, I think that he is that disconnected from reality.
Even his supporters know that his wasn’t the biggest crowd at an inauguration, and that he didn’t have the greatest electoral win in all of history, but these are things that he believes.
As his claims become more and more disconnected from reality, yes, the public will notice, and trump does not need to be kept ignorant, he is willfully ignorant of anything that doesn’t conform to his perception of reality. No effort need be expended there.
Yeah, some 30ish% of voters will eat it up. We aren’t trying to reach everyone here, just enough to make a difference.
It would not have taken swaying many voters back in 2016 to have ended up with a completely different president. We don’t need to persuade all that many in 2020.
I do think that we can rely on at least a third of the people that voted for trump in 2016 to be self aware enough to realize their mistake, especially if trump keeps being… well, trump.
I feel the exact opposite. We currently seem to be fighting short term fights that cannot be won and sacrificing long term goals in the process. I don’t think that the democrats lost in the recent government shutdown, but apparently, most of the public does. “Fighting the good fight” may rally the base a bit, (the base that doesn’t bother to turn out in midterm elections), but is not going to win any converts.
If we want things to change, we have to convince the public to change things. Picking fights we can’t win for causes that can be soundbited as “Cares more about illegals than the troops” pushes the public away.
Saying, “We were happy to work together with President Trump to come up with a solution to keep those who were brought here as children from being removed from the only home they have ever known. Thank you President Trump, for being instrumental in our negotiations and helping us come to a deal.” makes the democrats look like the grownups in the room, as opposed to the current perception of them whining ineffectually at what they have no power to stop the republicans from doing.
And if trump says, “And it was my idea to let these kids stay, they didn’t do anything wrong.” Then let him have that. Any voter who would be swayed by that “misstatement” to vote for him isn’t going to be swayed by anything the democrats do, and those inclined to not vote for trump aren’t going to be swayed in the slightest.
It is the middle we are going for. And if the middle sees that the democrats are being the adults, that they are the ones who really are calling the shots and getting their policies through, then the moderate voter will gain respect for the party of progressives, and more strongly consider supporting their policies with their vote as well.
And that is also part of my point. By working with him now, by getting him to agree to progressive policies now, we limit the damage he does before he is replaced by someone qualified for the job.