The Walking Dead; 4.08 "Too Far Gone" (open spoilers)

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Folacin

I was actually somewhat happy with the battle scene, tactics and all.

These aren’t (for the most part) military people, so I wouldn’t expect them to have much of a clue. Some of them were smart enough to follow the tank for cover. We had at least one person who realistically just couldn’t handle it (one of the sisters).

But huddling behind the tank is not a particularly good assault strategy. Essentially you are clumping all your infantry in one spot and inexorably moving them into a position of being flanked. That was especially poor since the tank was just taking pot shots at the building instead of trying to reduce the number or efffectiveness of the actual defenders.

As Rick sort of noted, it was pretty pointless to wipe out the walls of the prison that you’re planning to shelter in. So the tank achieved little.

[Furious_Marmot]

Mid-season character whereabouts tally:

Rick (injured) and Carl: walking.

Maggie, Sasha (ill), and Bob (injured): walking, until Bob sees a bottle, then zombies will appear.

Tyrese: last seen chasing the two armed little girls.

The two armed little girls: running the wrong way.

The other two little kids: dropped the baby and ran away when the armed girls started shooting.

Judith: dead, but the producers couldn’t show us a half eaten kid, so they implied that a zombie carried her off to be devoured, like a freakin’ dingo or something.

Michonne: last seen standing right next to Rick. Disappeared like a ninja.

Daryl: last seen arrowing tank guy. Disappeared like a guy with plot immunity.

Beth: last seen near the bus

Glenn (ill): on the bus with a bunch of people.

Bunch of unnamed people: on the bus with Glenn. Oh shit, not Glenn too!

The Governor’s lady friend and her sister: standing in the middle of a jumble of trucks, corpses, and zombies. They’ll be fine.

The Governor’s lady friend’s sister’s lady friend: shot in the face.

The Governor: dead, but do you really even care at this point?

Herschel: dead, along with a good actor’s paycheck. Fucking writers.

Carol: driving around, hoping that Daryl and Michonne dont get any friendlier.

Is that everybody? Are they all correct?

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

My wild assed guess is that Tyreese catches up with the girls, and that little group meets up with Carol.

[simster]

Beth met up with Daryl and they bolted.

Tyreese ran off with the 4 girls with guns - they were better shots anyway.

Judith is missing, and will be a plot point next season.

Hated this half of the season so far - this is how the last season should have ended.

[Furious_Marmot]

@simster

Beth met up with Daryl and they bolted.

Tyreese ran off with the 4 girls with guns - they were better shots anyway.

Judith is missing, and will be a plot point next season.

Hated this half of the season so far - this is how the last season should have ended.

Completely missed Daryl joining up with Beth.

Are you sure all four little kids were around when Tyrese stood up? I could’ve sworn that two of them bolted before then.

Agree wholeheartedly that this half could have fit into last season if they’d cut some filler back then. They are milking the ratings.

[SykoSkotty]

@Sam_Stone

Where to start? Let’s see… If I was a crazy governor intent on saving my new Penny from the old Penny’s fate, I think I’d plan a crazy assault on an armed compound - one which any group with a lick of sense would have equipped with hardened positions, zeroed in rifles in good shooting positions, etc.

You said it yourself - the Gov is/was crazy. Insane. The “plan” was to threaten Michonne and Hershel as a means to get Rick to leave, but the truth is, he didn’t care whether he lived or died anymore. All he knew was that he wanted to hurt people. I don’t think he had any intention of a peaceful solution.

@Sam_Stone

But let’s say the Governor is the reincarnation of Patton and the plan is solid. Then the next thing I’d do is leave mom and the kid alone in a camp nestled in the woods - the mom who can barely handle a weapon. Then I’d make sure that mom remembers to let the small child play in a pile of filth 50 yards away. And she should pay careful attention to the impenetrable water barrier and ignore the dense, unprotected, zombie-infested forest beside her distant child. Because what could possibly go wrong? Mud zombie was just a bonus. One could have popped out of the forest at any time.

My take is that he didn’t want mom and kid anywhere near that battle because he knew it was going to turn violent. It seemed to me their camp was in a clearing that you could see around. It wasn’t buried in the woods…there was definitely some free space to notice a walker approaching.

@Sam_Stone

It made no sense for the Governor to kill Hershel. He actually liked Hershel. And just as a pure survival tactic, let’s solve this puzzle: You, the Governor, are going to slice the head off of one of two people in front of you. You’ll only get one shot in before all hell breaks loose. Who do you pick? The ninja assassin who took out your eye, killed your child, and plans to kill you, or the kindly country doctor? Also, you might also want to consider the ramifications on unit cohesion when you murder the nice white-haired man in front of your erstwhile civilian army.

Well, I see it like this : Hershel tried to talk the Governor into living peacefully together, and so did Rick. The Governor killed Hershel because he represented everything that he has come to hate. He wanted no peace, only violence and taking the prison by force. He also did it to show Rick that this won’t end peacefully. After killing Hershel, he gave the order to “kill them all” which tells me he intended to kill Michonne and everyone else at the prison, so it didn’t matter to him who died first because they were all going to be killed.

@Sam_Stone

Anyhoo… How did Mom and the kid get to the battle? And why? How did they even know where it was? How far away from their camp was the prison, anyway?

She drove. You can clearly see a car with the doors open behind mom as she’s walking towards the Governor. Why? Because she wanted to show him that he failed at protecting her, and she wanted to confirm her suspicions of his violent ways. Remember when she told him “I don’t even know you anymore?” I’m sure he told her where the prison was and obviously it wasn’t that far because the Governor had driven there to spy on them in previous episodes. The camp she came from was the one by the river, which was temporary.

@Sam_Stone

You can’t even put that one on the Governor, for Pete’s sake. That kid is the only person he didn’t kill: bad parenting did.

Agreed.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

One thing that pissed me off about the bad parenting was that it wasn’t even necessary. They could have set that scene up so that the camper was right next to the mud. The zombie attack came from such an unexpected direction that it could happen so quickly that Lily couldn’t even jump down fast enough. Putting her a football field away was almost like an intentional thumb in the eye of the viewers.

[Ellen_Cherry]

@Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank

Until not-Maggie came up and shot him in the head, I was afraid they were gonna turn The Governor into a ninja zombie who would, through some stupid contrivance, terrorize the crew for at least three more weeks somewhere down the line, but not before we follow him around for a couple episodes as he stumbles around, moans, gets all introspective and tries to become a better zombie.

I’d watch that.

@SykoSkotty

I’m sure he told her where the prison was and obviously it wasn’t that far

When Guv was rallying the troops and not-Maggie (Lily?) was nearby, she would have overhead him telling the group that the prison was “off Highway 68” or whatever it was.

Me, I am the worst about children-in-peril situations. I don’t care how many Governors told me that I’d be safe at the river’s edge, I would not have BUDGED from my child’s side. Jeez! I’d lock myself, and her, in a dog kennel if that’s what it took.

The entire existence of Judith has made me a burning mess of anxiety every episode. You should have seen me when they were changing her diaper at the top of the stairs — right by a two-bar railing that created a perfect hole for a baby to fall through. One ill-timed squirm and Little Asskicker is a flat asskicker.

I fully expected the governor to kill (or attempt to kill) Michonne slowly and bloodily in full view of the Rick contingent, just because he was so pissed at her. Instead I guess he vented all his post-Apocalyptic ire on Rick’s face. Ow.

[Wile_E]

My thoughts.

We knew they’d kill off a major character and not just the governor. For it to have a major impact on all the viewers and characters it had to be someone everyone was invested in. Everyone loved Hershel. They’ve been telegraphing it for a bit, even the actor knew when he read the speech when he went into the quarantine area to help the sick that he would soon be getting the call that Hershel was done for. So I had a strong feeling it would be Hershel. I don’t like how he died but I also understand it from the writer’s standpoint. Robert Kirkman commented on the Talking Dead episode right after that the more beloved the character the more brutal the death you have to write for them for it to have the most impact.

I also see the Gov’s motivation for killing Hershel over Michonne. As someone else pointed out Hershel and Rick were saying the same things and killing Hershel was a special “fuck you” to Rick. He didn’t know how attached these people were to Michonne and I think he also thought he would still get to follow through with his plan to slowly torture and kill Michonne later.

As for no one shooting the Gov before he could take out Hershel. Daryl had commented to Carl about how it was too far away to be a good clean shot and I think they may have also hoped the Gov was bluffing. He did stop for a few seconds and lower the sword so maybe they thought Rick had convinced him and then he swung.

The stupidest things to me about the episode were the people blindly following the Gov and not asking “why are we blowing up the place we want to use for shelter?” and “why did you just kill Santa Claus?” and of course the wonderful parenting decisions made by Lily and the Gov. I thought for sure he was going to tell her to wait in the camper before he left so some of that was on him as well. Lily was not an experienced zombie killer he should have had them take more precautions before he left.

I actually thought what might happen is that Lily would fall through the rotten roof of the camper while a hoard of zombies showed up and chowed on little Meghan and she would have been powerless to do anything. At some point in her struggle she’d probably puncture a major vessel and bleed out. Then the gov would come back and find them both zombies.

Also, as always, Daryl is awesome. He managed to find the only walker with a steel plate in his back to use as a shield and then he took out the tank as well as most of the rest of the attackers.

[simster]

not-Maggie was a nurse - I think she already knew where the prison was - how she knew where the ‘back entrance’ was would be another matter.

For me, the only way the Herschel death would have worked would be if it caused the Governers crew to turn on him then and there - the tank driver might have still tried to do something - but there should have been an ‘oh shit’ moment by the rest of the crew, and potentially one/more of them walking away to be shot by him.

Otherwise, it just serves as a sensless death done for dramatic reasons - what I really would have liked would have been herschell coming back as a Zombie and taking out the govener.

I’m glad that part of the story is over - I’m debating on whether or not to watch when it returns (who am I kidding, its the best post apocalyptic zombie show we have) and am curious as to how the group gets back together - it was stated they had an escape plan, so maybe they had a meeting place planned.

[Push_You_Down]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

But huddling behind the tank is not a particularly good assault strategy. Essentially you are clumping all your infantry in one spot and inexorably moving them into a position of being flanked.

They why do I see that in every WW2 movie involving a tank?
Infantry uses the tank for cover to advance. No one was flanking them across an OPEN field or suddenly dropping mortar fire on them.

So they had a mass exodus escape plan (the loaded bus)…but no one mentioned a rally point did they?

I like to hope that that will be focus of the second half–each group trying to make it to the rally point.
The bus folks obviously would get there first and have decide how long to wait for stragglers.
Some on-foot pairings would have an easier time; Daryl and Beth are both uninjured, whereas Rick is injured and limping.

[McDeath_the_Mad]

Judging by the comments here it sounds like nobody has read the comics.

In the comics, the Govenor attacked the prison, in the process Herscel died, Lorie and Judith died as well as a few other characters.

Carl and Rick got seperated from the rest of the group, Rick was sick and Carl had to look after him. Then Michone found (she got seperated during the attack) them and re-connected with them.

Glen and Maggie weren’t at the prison (they had gone back to the farm).

Oh yeah in the comic one of the Governor’s people shot the Govenor after the failed attack.

So maybe the writers will start drawing from some more of the comic story lines.

MtM

[Sterling_Archer]

Can you really take out a tank that way?

I was hoping Michonne would cut out the Governor’s other eye, then let him turn him into a pitiful blind zombie and watch him wander into the barb wire.

[AtomicDog]

Nope, never read the comics.

I’m kind of proud of myself for suggesting in a first season thread that Rick and his gang hole up in a prison - then I discovered that the comic was way ahead of me.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Push_You_Down

They why do I see that in every WW2 movie involving a tank?
Infantry uses the tank for cover to advance. No one was flanking them across an OPEN field or suddenly dropping mortar fire on them.

Any of those movies depict a single tank and platoon moving to a choke point? I mean what else could happen once the tank moves through the line of defenders? Unless the defenders have been taken out or are only on one side of the tank, they’re simply standing there exposed on both sides.

And that’s pretty much what happened in the show, now that I think about it. The tank made it through the interior gate, and the assault force was wiped out at that point, including two of the more competent members of the team being taken out by a child with a pistol.

[Push_You_Down]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Any of those movies depict a single tank and platoon moving to a choke point? I mean what else could happen once the tank moves through the line of defenders? Unless the defenders have been taken out or are only on one side of the tank, they’re simply standing there exposed on both sides.

And that’s pretty much what happened in the show, now that I think about it. The tank made it through the interior gate, and the assault force was wiped out at that point, including two of the more competent members of the team being taken out by a child with a pistol.

Because clearly the horrible tactics of using the tank for advancing cover lead directly to that character getting shot in the face by a child.

So what was the proper way to use a single tank to assault the prison?

[simster]

@Push_You_Down

Because clearly the horrible tactics of using the tank for advancing cover lead directly to that character getting shot in the face by a child.

So what was the proper way to use a single tank to assault the prison?

stay back - random fire at the prison/defenders until its in flames - then send in the ground troops who have been protecting the flank/back of the tank from zombies/etc.

No reason for any of them move forward from the external postion they were in until the building was leveled.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Push_You_Down

Because clearly the horrible tactics of using the tank for advancing cover lead directly to that character getting shot in the face by a child.

So what was the proper way to use a single tank to assault the prison?

How about using the destructive power of the main gun to take out any fortified defenses and/or create a breach point somewhere that is less well defended? Why lump the entire assault force into a single target? Why not have simultaneous attacks at multiple points in order to get a toehold on a more vulnerable point in the defense? Think about what you’re trying to achieve and work backwards from there.

[Human_Action]

I’d advise against using the main gun at all. There’s no point in taking over the prison if it’s been shot to pieces and there’s no way to keep the zombies out.

Use the tank as an APC, to ferry troops up to the prison structures. Rely on the coaxial machine gun to engage defenders. Use trucks or an RV to plug the hole in the fenceline and keep zombies out. Better still, breach the fence with bolt cutters under cover of darkness, and only cut away a section of fence wide enough to admit the tank, (cutting only on one side) so it can be re-secured later with rope or wire.

Best of all, re-think the idea of winning safety for themselves by engaging in a prolonged gunfight that, best case scenario, leaves a third of their number dead or wounded.

[Push_You_Down]

These are all great scenarios for a military assault on a compound you don’t care about afterward… Not a dozen or so civilians trying to kill inhabitants of what they hope will be their future home.

You can pick apart the logic of using the tank in the first place and you can pick apart the logic of then wanting the prison in the first place. You eventually get down a rabbit hole or picking apart everything and there’s certain point where you have to ask yourself–am I just watching this show to pick it apart?