The Walking Dead; 4.08 "Too Far Gone" (open spoilers)

First, attacking a prison for ‘safety’ is stupid. There are plenty of safe-enough buildings around if the writers would use their brains. Any structure made of concrete is impervious to zombies. Any industrial structure will have chain-link fences. Any military facility will have plenty of secure areas. You don’t need to go fight your way into a heavily defended compound - especially if you’re going to have to destroy it to get in.

But assuming it was the only way they could go, then the right way to do it would have been with stealth and multiple entry points. Go through the fence in three or four places, then use the tank as a big diversion while the others get close enough to start picking people off. Then once the battle has started, use the tank against tactical assets like hardened machine gun positions.

By the way, when you see soldiers marching with tanks, it’s not because the tanks are protecting the soldiers: it’s because the soldiers are protecting the tanks. Before the rise of high-speed, high performance tanks like the M1A1, tanks had to go into battle with infantry support. Otherwise they can be ridiculously easy to disable with satchel charges, fire, or other close-in techniques like grenades in the tracks or dropped down the pipe like Daryl’s stunt.

Whether Daryl’s grenade trick would have worked would depend on whether the breech of the gun was open inside. If he got lucky, the grenade could have rolled through and right into the crew cabin. If the breech was closed I’m not sure how much damage it would have done.

And those people weren’t all in cover behind the tank anyway. There was only one small-ish tank, and well over a dozen people. Perhaps two of them would have had really good cover crouching directly behind it - the rest would have been exposed.

Remember, the defenders have been head-shooting zombies for a year or two now. They’re all very good marksmen. There are at least four people with military/police training in their group, if you include Daryl’s hillbilly hunting excellence. Those people should all have been on scoped rifles, and those attackers should never have gotten within 500 feet of the prison. The Governor should never have come close to being able to kill Hershel before being drilled.

As for taking out the people behind the tank - Molotov cocktails work nicely for that. So do flanking manoevers. As soon as that tank got close enough to the compound that people could shoot around it, there was no cover left.

At least the battle ended correctly - with pretty much every attacker dead and minimal casualties to the defenders. That’s what happens when you do stupid things.

The tank guy…the brother of the Good Guy Brian whacked?..yelled “Grenade!” when Darryl dropped it into the barrel, so I assumed he saw it roll into the tank, but I don’t know if it would fit through the breech.

Indeed, Sam Stone, one could say that as a tactician, The Governor was quite myopic.

Not only can you, there is a Youtube video of somebody doing it. In reality.

I just did a search and there are multiple videos of this being done.

That was an entertaining spectacle. Best parts were Daryl grenade dunking the tank, Daryl killing the scumbag driver, Lizzie and pals as child soldiers, and the Gov getting run through.

I’m trying to think of all the logic holes or “yeah right” moments. There were a lot.

  1. The gov or tank driver isn’t sniped when the shit hits the fan.

  2. Rick isn’t gunned down immediately. He somehow backpedals like 20 feet in the open. This was 10x worse than the Breaking Bad desert scene.

  3. Rick clearly dives behind the bus, then the invaders forget and he surprises the Gov.

  4. Despite that Rick still gets the shit beat out of him.

  5. Michonne rolls around like a ninja and no one kills her, not even the Gov who knows how dangerous she is.

  6. Tara reacts like any normal human being in the real world (a rarity for this show) and says something to the effect of 'that crazy dude just cut that other dude’s head off with a sword for no reason! Fuck ‘dat!’ The tank driver, instead of informing the group that yes the gov is crazy and killed his brother, tells her to shut up and fight.

  7. Gov says they’ll do it peacefully and he doesn’t want to hurt anyone. Rick invites them into the prison and totally isn’t a crazy guy like the Gov said he was. Then the Gov screams “KILL 'EM ALL!” They go along with it.

  8. The invaders keep advancing despite being gunned down and the prison’s walls being a lost cause and zombies flanking them. The gov is a lunatic who wants to kill everyone, sure, but it’s not clear why the others don’t save their own bacon.

  9. Daryl’s super sweet zombie shield has been mentioned, but they showed real balls by having it next to the scene where the guy from the Wire is talking about checking for exit wounds.

  10. The tank fires randomly at walls just cuz lawls explosions are cool.

Not part of the list, but Rick was talking long enough the defenders could have probably exited out the other side, gone into the woods, circled back around and set up flanking positions and cut the invaders to ribbons from all angles.

I wonder what would have happened if Rick surrendered and agreed to leave the prison. Gov still kills Herschel in cold blood? Invaders still don’t turn on him?

As for the mother of the year scene, couldn’t you jump off an RV instead of slowly climbing down the ladder? Or at least slide down the ladder? I mean, if you’re going to have your kid off on her lonesome. Sheesh.

And yeah, he has balls of steel.

We’re not ‘picking apart everything’. We’re criticizing very stupid actions by supposedly smart characters.

If you want to know how to assault a compound like that, just watch any competent movie or documentary showing exactly that being done. You’ll note that you never see Navy SEALS slow-marching through a gate behind a tank. The only way you’re going to take a facility like that is with stealth and surprise, or with overwhelming firepower. And possibly a Spanish Inquisition.

They should have quietly cut holes in the fence and sneaked in, and infiltrated as close to the buildings as they could. Then make your big scene with the tank if you must, but when all hell breaks loose suddenly the defenders are being hit from all sides and chaos ensues. But allowing them to dig in and shoot at you from behind cover while you slowly march across a large field is simply suicide.

They should have had snipers with scoped rifles hidden back in the trees, picking off defenders once the battle started. And of course, the defenders should have had the same. For that matter, how did the attackers even manage to mass in front of the fence like that? Rick’s group lives in a prison with failing fences, and they don’t even post lookouts or have scouts?

Hell, since the Governor’s group planned to breach the fence anyway, how about just breaching it with the tank, then pulling back and waiting for zombies to come in? Help them along with some nice zombie music and a buffet of dead rats if you must. Shoot anyone who comes out to fix the fence. Once the yard is infested with zombies, use the main gun to blow a hole in a building where the zombies are congregated so they can get inside and wreak more havoc.

Make the place uninhabitable until the defenders agree to terms, then once they’re gone you can fix the hole in the fence and clear the zombies. That’s what passes for siege warfare in the zombie apocalypse.

There are probably a million clever ways to take that prison. The writers chose about the stupidest possible way to go about it.

Or had a narrow field of view.

I’d go further: any structure with a second floor is impervious to zombies, once you barricade the stairwell. Make a few spears, and the zombies are a nuisance that you spend an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening dispatching, or as-needed.

[QUOTE=Sam Stone]

Remember, the defenders have been head-shooting zombies for a year or two now. They’re all very good marksmen. There are at least four people with military/police training in their group, if you include Daryl’s hillbilly hunting excellence. Those people should all have been on scoped rifles, and those attackers should never have gotten within 500 feet of the prison. The Governor should never have come close to being able to kill Hershel before being drilled.

[/quote]

Walking Dead pet peeve #402 - the almost total lack of hunting rifles in rural Georgia. Everybody’s toting around M4s and other assault rifles, even exotics like the Steyr AUG, or handguns. Daddy’s old deer rifle is just the trick to defend a prison fenceline from a few hundred yards away, and without dumping hundreds of precious rounds of ammunition into the air. Dale had one, but nobody else seems to.

Also, one Ruger 10/22 and a 500-pack of .22LR would suffice for an anti-zombie emergency weapon, if they ever overran the defenses: get on a roof, take your time, and wipe them all out.

IMHO, the correct outcome would be the untrained civilian attackers retreating in a panic once they started taking casualties.

The M60 mounts a 105mm gun, which is 4.1 inches. A grenade could probably fit through an open breechblock.

Aside from the point about the infantry being there to protect the tanks instead of the opposite, in real tank warfare in WWII there was a lot of detail that you don’t see in war movies. For one thing, they protected their flanks and secured their rear, and one of the easiest ways to lose a tank battalion is to be flanked. The Germans were very good at flanking manoevers and wiped out a lot of Soviet tanks and infantry that way. In The Walking Dead, that tank was essentially driving into a position where it would be obviously outflanked. That should never have happened. Even if the governor was stupid, the tank driver should have had proper tactics drilled into him in advanced training for becoming a tank commander.

But again… those soldiers were essentially there to keep the enemy from rushing in among the tanks and blowing them apart with satchel charges. Tanks are really good against other tanks. Against enemy soldiers buzzing around among them - not so much.

When the real tank battles started, those soldiers were often cannon fodder.

Thanks, Human Action.

I was having a Last of the Mohicans flashback when Tara’s girlfriend told her I WILL FIND YOU.

You mean, “we chased the Indians for a while, and then the Indians chased us for a while” or Zombies hiding in a sapling?
:slight_smile:
Mark Twain on Cooper.

It’s considered bad form to post unspoiled stuff from the comic books here.

Well, I’m hedging my bets by requiring concrete, because a zombie horde can actually put a really large force on a structure. Mythbusters tested that on their “Walking Dead” special. They got a whole bunch of people to be a zombie horde, and protected them against being crushed by armoring their torsos. Then they had them push against a gate, and they went through it easily. Even when the gate was reinforced the zombies punched through. It was only when the Mythbusters used every trick to super-reinforce the gate that it held against them, and that was only for a few minutes. Given a relentless constant push by a large horde, I think they could actually bring down a lot of frame structures, or at least go through the walls or doors.

But imagine the cool habitat you could make in a refinery that has lots of concrete silos and storage bins. Run rope bridges between them at the top, and you could move freely from one to the other even if the ground level was infested. Put a little thought into some safe ways of moving in and out of the compound if it’s overrun, and Bob’s yer uncle.

A water treatment plant would be perfect. You’ve got water on one side so you have a safe egress if the zombie horde comes for you. You also have a source of fresh water. You’ve got heavy duty reinforced fencing around the facility. You’ve got concrete storage silos and reinforced buildings.

Even better - find a bloody island. Georgia is full of lakes and rivers that have peninsulas and islands that would be perfect for defending against zombies.

And I like the Ruger 10/22 idea. I’ve got one of those myself. The perfect weapon for clearing zombies, assuming a .22 will do enough brain damage. Any hardware store would have thousands of .22 rounds. I’ve got about 1,000 rounds sitting here, and that’s just because I got some on sale. There would have been millions of .22 rounds available in a place like Georgia.

Another nice thing about a Ruger 10/22 - easy to silence with a homemade silencer. Make it quiet, and you can pick off zombies from a distance all day without attracting more. That would actually be fun - sit in the guard tower with your 10/22 and shoot any zombie you see.

I’m sure it’s just standard fare to break out the military-style weapons. The prop department is probably full of them, and they look cool on TV. It generates more action to see lots of people praying and spraying bullets everywhere instead of showing someone calmly chambering rounds and sighting down a scope. That’s my problem with the Walking Dead’s fight scenes - they’re not logical because no one gives any thought to that. It’s all about just using what you have and then filming for maximum noise and action. Logic gets left at the starting gate.

True.

It’s kinda nitpicky, but the flaming guard tower drove me nuts. What the heck is supposed to be on fire up there?

Not to make excuses for the writers of this show, but those are two stupids that I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to - they had spent the Zombie Apocalypse up to this point holed up in an apartment building. Still, you’d think a mother’s instinct would see that there could be zombies all around her daughter, and keep her close.

Yup.

I had a vision of Michonne just poking out his other eye and scampering off, cackling madly. :smiley:

Yes, the solidity of walkers does indeed vary - you can squish their heads easily by looking at them harshly, yet they’ll stop any number of bullets when you use one as a human shield. Hunh.

Speaking of beloved characters dying, how many of us would stick around after the death of Daryl?

Plus, I think we sort of hashed it out with the first season - this is a tv show discussion, not a comics discussion. I for one was getting extremely annoyed by people who **would. not. **leave the comic books out of this.

Yeah, he really wasn’t seeing the big picture. :smiley:

(Sorry for the multiple posts - this is what happens when you do something in the middle of reading a thread. :slight_smile: )

2 things I was waiting for that would have helped Rick not end up in a massive firefight ending with everyone being displaced (not what the writers wanted, but still)

  1. “I was a cop before” Those people seem like law-abiding citizens and a police officer might make them second guess Guv’s ‘they’re all killers’ remark.

  2. “Hey, Tyreese, why don’t you come down there with me, you can stay behind the bus if you want. But you can tell them about your time with the Guv” (or an actual citizen)

Sure the Guv would have responses for both, but I would hope that those really innocent people behind the Guv who didn’t really want to fight and were just fronting, would have listened to those speeches with more open minds.

“And on Friday nights, the Guv would hold zombie mutilation combat fights. He thought it was hilarious!”
I dunno, maybe it wouldn’t be believable :rolleyes: