The white hood: heritage, not hate!

[octopus]

@Smartass

I’m sorry, but I can’t just let this pass. Having lived three decades and change in Alabama (in Florida for the last 9), I’ve got a pretty good sense of the racism that we have there. Also being pretty well traveled and married into a displaced Midwestern family, I have a pretty good sense of the flavor of the racism elsewhere.

My generalization of the difference is as follows: A real southern racist hollers “nigger”. A non-southern racist whispers “the blacks.” These both represent pretty much the same stereotypes: Lazy, stupid, criminal, etc. So, if you’re talking about crime, the economy, or some other societal issue, you can tell the southern racist from the non-southern racist by speech pattern:

“Well, we wouldn’t have a problem if it wasn’t for all the goddamn niggers.”
“Well, we wouldn’t have this problem if it weren’t for the blacks.”

One definitely sounds less offensive, but it’s the same racist sentiment either way. My point is this: You’re not going to get anywhere with convincing southerners of anything as long as the whole conversation is built around the idea that racism is a southern problem. It’s an American problem. It’s a global problem.

You want to advise us on how to deal with our racists? What are you doing about yours? Far as I can tell, the only thing we really can do is wait for them to die; they sure aren’t very willing to change.

I think billfish678 may be being a little too subtle for you here, and you’re way too quick to put words into his mouth. His point was for you to actually think about why Southerners feel the need to have a flag, whether it be the confederate flag or something else. He didn’t feel the need to provide evidence because, to some Southerners, this thread provides plenty of it.

To be clear, there are no living southerners who owned slaves or fought in the Civil War. However, it sure seems like there is an ongoing desire to hold it over our heads. Everyone here is very aware of racial stereotypes, but no one is talking about the stereotypes that non-southerners apply to southerners…when you think southerner, are you honestly going to say that none of

ignorant
redneck
racist
slave owners
illiterate
gun-obsessed

cross your mind? Seriously? If southerners start taking seriously what everyone else thinks of us, we’ll have no self-esteem left. So, what happens when people feel continually criticized? Well, for some, they look for things to take pride in. In the south, we even tend to take a contrarian pride in who we are, and will say things like, “Yeah, I have to live with a bunch of ignorant racist rednecks, but at least I don’t have to live up north.”

So, why would we want to have a flag for our region in particular? More than anything else, it’s an act of defiance. It’s a big ole “fuck you” to all the people from other regions who act like the South is the only place you can find ignorant racists. If you’re looking for a reason to fly the flag that isn’t “I’m a racist” or “I’m an asshole”, most southerners would say “because we’re surrounded by assholes, and we like pissing them off.” I have known quite a few people in my life who sported the Confederate Flag with no racist intentions whatsoever. Just “southern pride”, and a desire to proclaim it loudly in a country where so many people think (or at least act like) we’re shit.

However, there is a real problem with this, because there have been so many loud southern racists who sport the flag as a way of announcing their racism. There are real live southerners who think “southern pride” includes “recognizing that black people are inferior to white people.”

It doesn’t matter to me in the least what the CSA stood for, and I can’t believe so much time has been wasted in this thread arguing about it. The issue isn’t why anyone flew the flag then, but why someone flies it now. There are people who display it to announce their southern pride, and it’s asinine that the lists that I keep seeing of “reasons” never include one that isn’t insulting–either you’re a racist, an ignorant redneck, or an asshole (which you already knew when you found out they were southerners, right?). LHOD consistently insists that there can’t be a good reason, and I suspect he could easily make lists that just as clearly show that there can be no good southerners or good reasons for southerners to be proud, right?

Sure there can. One of those reasons to fly the confederate flag CAN be to try to demonstrate that there is more to the South than racism. To show that it CAN stand for something good. To try to “take it back” from the ignorant assholes and make it represent something better. To my way of thinking, this is at least a little more honest than hiding it away and pretending that none of the bad shit in the past ever happened. Just like we pretend that the Trail Of Tears never happened, or doesn’t have anything to do with us. No lessons to be learned there, either, I suppose.

Having said all that, there are still far too many racists sporting the stars and bars for my taste. And there are people with legitimate reasons to be intimidated by it. So, while I’m proud–and more than a little relieved–to be a Southerner, you won’t find any confederate flags on my house or vehicles (I only fly flags that say “Roll Tide”). While the confederate flag can stand for good things–and sometimes it does–it’s not worth it to me to risk someone thinking that I might be one of those other kinds of southerner; I’ve got them in my family, and it just hits a little too close to home.

As for the comparison of the flag to the KKK hood…the flag CAN stand for legit southern pride or for racism (or for admiration of the amazing tactical prowess of Robert E. Lee). The KKK has never stood for anything but hate. When I was a teenager (1980s), we found a place out by the lake where a KKK group had a…whatever you call their lodges where they meet revel to in their whiteness. It had 3 massive crosses on display in a clearing between several buildings that could have been barns or churches. I was shocked that such a place might actually still exist. And even though I was as white as the Klansmen, just seeing the place was terrifying.

-VM

Well said, but it’s going to fall on purposefully deaf ears. One thing I’ve learned on the internet is that there is a class of people who are extraordinarily smug in their own point of view that it’s impossible to convince them to see another point of view.

Even pointing out the fact that what may be erroneously assumed about someone and their intent is not entirely fair will often lead to being labelled “hateful”, “racist” or some other pejorative. It’s a very nasty tactic akin to the poisoning the well fallacy. Where one can attack the character of a speaker or poster and not even deal with the merits of the argument.

I have lived in the South, the Midwest, and New England. In my experiences they are all nearly equally racist. I’ll give a slight nod to the Midwest for being the most racist/bigoted.

I don’t like what the antebellum South stood for. I don’t like how nasty the South was in terms of Jim Crow and terror towards blacks and other minorities. I’m glad the North thrashed the South. I also don’t like ignorant and smug “regionalists” engaging in one of the few forms of bigotry still acceptable. I almost dislike that as much as I dislike what the Confederacy was and if I were a more irascible person, I myself would get some Confederate gear merely out of spite.

The problem I see coming is that this “outrage” will not stop at the flag it will continue towards names of places, monuments, etc. It’s going to be an ugly debate and I will not be surprised if there is pushback. I’d also like to see some outrage directed at forms of popular culture that glorifies criminal behavior. That stuff actually is a bad influence.

[Smartass]

@Robert163

I realize you said you don’t fly the confederate flag but even as a hypothetical response the one you gave above is: (1)bizarre (2)incredibly juvenile

I see, and real people never act in a juvenile way, so clearly my description of how they act is completely unbelievable.

Come to think of it, so are most of the posts in the Great Debates…and all this time, I thought they were REAL.

Just out of curiosity, how do suppose a non-bizarre, non-juvenile person will react? “My goodness, you have a valid point: I must be an ignorant racist asshole. I’ll take this flag down immediately so you’ll have a better opinion of me.”

-VM

[Smartass]

@Robert163

What would those things be (seriously, what good things do you think it represents?)

Believe it or not, there are good parts of southern culture…things like friendliness, courtesy, self-sufficiency, hospitality, and generosity. It rarely snows where I’m from, but the last time it did, a bunch of rednecks took to the road in their four-wheel drives, looking for people who were stranded so they could pull them out.

There is no lack of non-southerners ready and willing to point out the bad parts of southern culture, but that doesn’t mean that southerners can’t take pride in the good parts.

-VM

[Terr]

@octopus

The problem I see coming is that this “outrage” will not stop at the flag it will continue towards names of places, monuments, etc.

As seen in this, from another thread:

@The_Hamster_King

[Quote=Terr]
So - once you remove the flag, isn’t that same symbolism/reverence/racism preserved by having the Confederate soldier memorial?

Yes. The memorials should be the next to go.
[/QUOTE]

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Smartass

My point is that your list insults fellow posters. Because you can’t imagine having the kind of southern pride that inspires southerners to fly the confederate flag (even the non-racists), you assume that it cannot exist.

Nonsense. I’ve wasted millions of electrons explaining why this southern pride exists, in my opinion. You could try specific disagreements with my explanations, but you haven’t yet done so.

So, presence of the flag is de facto evidence that the person displaying it is ignorant, racist, or just an asshole. Well, there can, in fact, be other items on your list, and I’m suggesting what a few of them might be.

No you haven’t. The closest you’ve come is suggesting that some southerners, realizing that others think they might be being jerks about it, fly the flag as a giant fuck you to those people. That’s…not the behavior of decent people.

Would the category of “people who show remarkably little concern about making people around them unhappy” include people who randomly insult large groups of southerners?

Sure. But there’s nothing random about what I’m saying, so it doesn’t apply to me. It does not include people who make reasoned critiques of large groups of southerners that result in condemning those groups.

If there’s one takeaway I’d like for you to take from my rambling posts, it’s this: If you really want to convince southerners to take down the flags, you need to find a way that doesn’t include referring to them this way. You’re not going to insult southerners into changing.

Wrong. And this is the sort of argument that correctly gets condemned as a “tone argument.” One of the major movers of social change is to make certain behavior be beyond the limits of polite society, by ostracizing and condemning people that engage in it. That’s what’s going on right now. And guess what: it’s working.

Even so, your characterizations of southern people piss me off. When I read your posts and find myself tempted to go out and buy a new hat, it suggests that you’re going about this in exactly the wrong way.

I disagree: instead, it suggests you’re going about this in exactly the wrong way.

@octopus

Well said, but it’s going to fall on purposefully deaf ears. One thing I’ve learned on the internet is that there is a class of people who are extraordinarily smug in their own point of view that it’s impossible to convince them to see another point of view.

You, meanwhile–well, I’ve been moderated for making this personal, so I’ll just ask you to consider whether you really want to condemn others for their ad hominems at this point.

[Smartass]

@octopus

I don’t like what the antebellum South stood for. I don’t like how nasty the South was in terms of Jim Crow and terror towards blacks and other minorities. I’m glad the North thrashed the South.

I really wish it hadn’t happened. Slavery was unsustainable, and the cracks were already starting to show. If it could have been done peacefully…but the rhetoric kept ramping up until the South was spoiling for a fight.

Much like the arguments over the confederate flag…the rhetoric keeps ramping up, and southerners just get angrier, pretty much as you’ve suggested. I just don’t see how it’s not obvious that you you’re not going to win over anyone to your side when you lead with, “The evidence clearly shows that you are racist, ignorant, or just an asshole. If you just study history more closely, you’ll see that I’m right.”

-VM

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Smartass

There is no lack of non-southerners ready and willing to point out the bad parts of southern culture, but that doesn’t mean that southerners can’t take pride in the good parts.

Again: I have lived in the South nearly all my life. I am almost certainly more Southern than you. This is a conversation that’s being had in the South, just like the Civil Rights movement was a conversation spearheaded by great Southerners like Martin Luther King, Jr. One of the pathologies that shows up over and over in white Southern culture is a false sense of martyrdom, a complete inability to listen to criticism.

You ask what the correct response is to being told that one is ignorant? It’s to check to see if one is ignorant. Same thing if one is called out for doing something racist, or acting like an asshole. If the accusation is false, by all means deny it. But to respond to it by doubling down? Not decent behavior.

[Smartass]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Nonsense. I’ve wasted millions of electrons explaining why this southern pride exists, in my opinion. You could try specific disagreements with my explanations, but you haven’t yet done so.

You listed 3 possible explanations for a white southerner flying a confederate flag, all of them representative of stereotypical character flaws (please do a quick search on “fundamental attribution error”; it’s a natural human tendency). I offered additional possibilities. If that isn’t specific enough for you, it’s because you can’t seem to digest the possibility that someone can disagree with you unless there’s something wrong with them.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

The closest you’ve come is suggesting that some southerners, realizing that others think they might be being jerks about it, fly the flag as a giant fuck you to those people. That’s…not the behavior of decent people.

Neither is characterizing a group of people–most of whom you don’t know–as being ignorant, racist, or assholes. Funny how quickly this turns into you challenging me to prove that I’m a decent person. I’ll let you go first.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

It does not include people who make reasoned critiques of large groups of southerners that result in condemning those groups.

I’m happy to just let this hang there, with your name beside it.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

One of the major movers of social change is to make certain behavior be beyond the limits of polite society, by ostracizing and condemning people that engage in it. That’s what’s going on right now. And guess what: it’s working.

Yes, you’re achieving great things here. You should be really proud.

When I had kids, I was dismayed to see how childishly they behaved, so I pointed out to them daily, “You’re childish and immature and I don’t want to be seen with you.” Eventually, they started acting more like adults. It’s really lucky think I was there to help them.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

I disagree: instead, it suggests you’re going about this in exactly the wrong way.

What do you think I’m trying to “go about”? Trying to make you a more persuasive communicator? Sounds like a little too quixotic of a quest for me.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

You, meanwhile–well, I’ve been moderated for making this personal, so I’ll just ask you to consider whether you really want to condemn others for their ad hominems at this point.

Nah. I’m afraid if I start condemning people it would put me in company I’d rather not keep.

-VM

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Smartass

You listed 3 possible explanations for a white southerner flying a confederate flag, all of them representative of stereotypical character flaws (please do a quick search on “fundamental attribution error”; it’s a natural human tendency). I offered additional possibilities.

No, you didn’t list additional possibilities. I already discussed the ones you offered. As for the rest of it, you continue not to say anything substantive, so I think we’re done.

[Smartass]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Again: I have lived in the South nearly all my life. I am almost certainly more Southern than you.

I was born in the middle part of Alabama, and I lived there for 30 years straight. My first car tag said “Heart Of Dixie” on it. I learned how to catch fish with a cane pole. How southern do I need to be to qualify, in your opinion?

Besides, how is claiming to be “more southern” any different than claiming to be “more pregnant”?

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

This is a conversation that’s being had in the South, just like the Civil Rights movement was a conversation spearheaded by great Southerners like Martin Luther King, Jr.

I’m not sure what you mean by “this”, but I will agree that there are many conversations being had in the South. I’m sure that your name-calling is contributing in a way that would make Martin Luther King, Jr. really proud.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

One of the pathologies that shows up over and over in white Southern culture is a false sense of martyrdom, a complete inability to listen to criticism.

So, not liking it when someone insults you is a “pathology”?

One of the pathologies that shows up among liberals is self-righteousness, a complete inability to listen to opinions different from your own.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

You ask what the correct response is to being told that one is ignorant? It’s to check to see if one is ignorant. Same thing if one is called out for doing something racist, or acting like an asshole.

I don’t recall asking any such thing. I do recall suggesting that insulting people is not a good way to convince them to change their behavior. It IS a good way to get punched in the mouth, and if you don’t know that, well, you live in a different South than the one that I know.

btw, I’ve carefully checked myself for ignorance, and since no one in this thread has mentioned anything about southern history or culture that I didn’t already know, I’m feeling okay. I have to ask, though, did you come up with any interesting findings when you checked to see if you were acting like an asshole? I would’ve said that a tendency to insult groups of southerners (or to “condemn” them while trying to sound reasonable) would be, at the very least, a cause for concern.

In my experience, when I’m in the right, I find I can usually convince others using arguments that appeal to their values, with no need for blanket attacks on their character. Then again, it just hit me: You’re not trying to talk to southerners; you’re just talking about them.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

If the accusation is false, by all means deny it. But to respond to it by doubling down? Not decent behavior.

So, in addition to our other flaws, Southerners have a tendency to act in a way you consider “indecent”. Honestly, if you really have spent any time living in the south, I wonder you could stand it.

-VM

[Robert163]

@octopus

Well said, but it’s going to fall on purposefully deaf ears. One thing I’ve learned on the internet is that there is a class of people who are extraordinarily smug in their own point of view that it’s impossible to convince them to see another point of view.

Even pointing out the fact that what may be erroneously assumed about someone and their intent is not entirely fair will often lead to being labelled “hateful”, “racist” or some other pejorative. It’s a very nasty tactic akin to the poisoning the well fallacy. Where one can attack the character of a speaker or poster and not even deal with the merits of the argument.

Assuming that someone is racist because they have a southern accent and speak with what seems to be an uneducated vocabulary, that would be wrong. To assume someone is racist because they are using a symbol used by slave owners and segregationists is indeed the correct assumption. Even if that person is “not really racist” (which I wholeheartedly do not believe) the fact that they choose that symbol that has that connotation is enough for me.

The problem I see coming is that this “outrage” will not stop at the flag it will continue towards names of places, monuments, etc. It’s going to be an ugly debate and I will not be surprised if there is pushback.

And indeed they should be. Black people were raped, mutilated, beaten, murdered, terrorized and oppressed. And forced to work work under horrible conditions. And had their wives and daughters raped and had family members sold off to other plantations. Life was constant fear and oppression. Do you disagree with any of this? If you do not disagree then why do you think we should honor the leaders who actively fought to prevent these practices from being stopped?

[Robert163]

@Smartass

I see, and real people never act in a juvenile way, so clearly my description of how they act is completely unbelievable.

Come to think of it, so are most of the posts in the Great Debates…and all this time, I thought they were REAL.

Just out of curiosity, how do suppose a non-bizarre, non-juvenile person will react? “My goodness, you have a valid point: I must be an ignorant racist asshole. I’ll take this flag down immediately so you’ll have a better opinion of me.”

-VM

The mature response, sense the flag represents hatred and oppression, slavery and segregation, would be to have nothing to do with it in any way at all.

[Smartass]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

No, you didn’t list additional possibilities. I already discussed the ones you offered.

Somehow, these statements don’t seem compatible.

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

As for the rest of it, you continue not to say anything substantive, so I think we’re done.

Fair enough, but if you keep offering veiled insults to southerners in this way, I will continue to respond. Because, see, I’m not doing this for you. It’s for the benefit of other people in this thread. You know, the ones who listen when the other person is talking.

That is to say, you can ignore me if you like (which isn’t childish at all, by the way), but I won’t ignore you.

-VM

[Robert163]

@Smartass

Believe it or not, there are good parts of southern culture…things like friendliness, courtesy, self-sufficiency, hospitality, and generosity.

-VM

Yes but how is that represented by the confederate flag? Those were not the stated aims of either the CSA or Segregationists. In fact, the stated aims of both groups is quite the opposite of friendliness, courtesy, self-sufficiency, hospitality, and generosity, which, I agree, southerners posses.

[Smartass]

@Robert163

Assuming that someone is racist because they have a southern accent and speak with what seems to be an uneducated vocabulary, that would be wrong. To assume someone is racist because they are using a symbol used by slave owners and segregationists is indeed the correct assumption. Even if that person is “not really racist” (which I wholeheartedly do not believe) the fact that they choose that symbol that has that connotation is enough for me.

Just to be clear, you’re saying that you will call someone a racist, even acknowledging that the person might not be a racist.

That’s certainly your option, but it’s not a stand I would take and brag about.

-VM

[Smartass]

@Robert163

The mature response, sense the flag represents hatred and oppression, slavery and segregation, would be to have nothing to do with it in any way at all.

I’m sorry. Your answer confuses me. What are you saying that this is the mature response to?

I can’t quite follow the chain of behavior: I call you an ignorant racist asshole, and you respond by renouncing all association with the confederate flag? Seriously, you know mature people who respond this way to insults?

I suppose it could just be that, since I live in the South, I don’t actually know any mature people…

-VM

[Robert163]

@Smartass

I do recall suggesting that insulting people is not a good way to convince them to change their behavior.

No, see ,“Southern Pride” proponents do not responded to reason, logic, or appeals to take into account the feelings of others. So claiming that we are just “insulting southerners” as a means of change is inaccurate.

It IS a good way to get punched in the mouth, and if you don’t know that, well, you live in a different South than the one that I know.

Yes, because that is the way a person who is interested in reason and open mindedness reacts, to punch someone when their cultural identity is attacked.

[Robert163]

@Smartass

Just to be clear, you’re saying that you will call someone a racist, even acknowledging that the person might not be a racist.

That’s certainly your option, but it’s not a stand I would take and brag about.

-VM

@Smartass

I’m sorry. Your answer confuses me. What are you saying that this is the mature response to?

I can’t quite follow the chain of behavior: I call you an ignorant racist asshole, and you respond by renouncing all association with the confederate flag? Seriously, you know mature people who respond this way to insults?

I suppose it could just be that, since I live in the South, I don’t actually know any mature people…

-VM

Assuming that someone is racist because they have a southern accent and speak with what seems to be an uneducated vocabulary, that would be wrong. To assume someone is racist because they are using a symbol used by slave owners and segregationists is indeed the correct assumption. Even if that person is “not really racist” (which I wholeheartedly do not believe) the fact that they choose that symbol that has that connotation is enough for me.

Essentially what you are saying, you (username) smartass, is that you are fully aware of the horrors of slavery and the oppression of segregation, but because you like “being a southerner” you think that if they want, a southerner should be able to fly the Confederate Flag even if it very legitimately offends a great many people. Your continued insistence to put “southern pride” ahead of the very legitimate objections of (primarily) African Americans just shows lack of sensitivity and a certain amount of arrogance, which I guess you call, self reliance or something like that.

[Smartass]

@Robert163

Yes but how is that represented by the confederate flag? Those were not the stated aims of either the CSA or Segregationists. In fact, the stated aims of both groups is quite the opposite of friendliness, courtesy, self-sufficiency, hospitality, and generosity, which, I agree, southerners posses.

I don’t know how else I can say this. A person can fly a confederate flag without intending to support the CSA (which doesn’t exist) or the Segregationists (which I’m not sure ever existed as an organized group with a flag). The issue is NOT what a segregationist means when they wave a flag. The issue is what the current person, in the present moment, means by it.

So, while you maintain that the flag represents the CSA or Jim Crow, and you use history to support it, for many southerners that flag represents the South as a whole, including the good and the bad. It represents people who may not be proud of all of their history, but are proud to have survived it. As long as you keep insisting that the flag can’t represent anything but what you say it does, you may as well be talking to the wall.

I think a much better approach is the one that I have hinted at (apparently, hints have to be really LOUD in this forum): Even though you’re not a racist, there are still way too many racists carrying this flag. Are you sure you want to risk being confused with them?

If you say it THAT way, who knows, there might still be a Southerner or two listening to you when you get to the question mark.

-VM

[Robert163]

@Smartass

I don’t know how else I can say this. A person can fly a confederate flag without intending to support the CSA (which doesn’t exist) or the Segregationists (which I’m not sure ever existed as an organized group with a flag). The issue is NOT what a segregationist means when they wave a flag. The issue is what the current person, in the present moment, means by it.

So, while you maintain that the flag represents the CSA or Jim Crow, and you use history to support it, for many southerners that flag represents the South as a whole, including the good and the bad. It represents people who may not be proud of all of their history, but are proud to have survived it. As long as you keep insisting that the flag can’t represent anything but what you say it does, you may as well be talking to the wall.

I think a much better approach is the one that I have hinted at (apparently, hints have to be really LOUD in this forum): Even though you’re not a racist, there are still way too many racists carrying this flag. Are you sure you want to risk being confused with them?

If you say it THAT way, who knows, there might still be a Southerner or two listening to you when you get to the question mark.

-VM

That’s already been said, and the people you are defending still cling to the flag and concepts like southern pride. Please stop pretending that reasonable debate or reasonable requests are going to produce change. It has already been tried.