Crikey. They were traitors who lost a rebellion. We’ve been soft on them for 150 years with their freakin flags. They were on the wrong side of history and humanity and they lost a war over it, and that is the symbol for that war. It isn’t anything else. In any other country it would be illegal.
I am only now thinking of what it meant when people flew or wore this flag, 50 years ago, to Black people who were southerners, or even from other areas who saw it. Just take minute and reflect how you would feel.
“The south is going to rise again” means something very specific to black people. Have you ever heard a black person say it? If blacks are full members of our society it’s impossible to say that with any moral sense.
Well, what do you expect from ignorant racist assholes?
Seriously, you don’t see this statement as insulting? At all?
How about this: “Confederate flag opponents think southerners are all ignorant racists, and they think it’s okay to insult them and give them condescending lectures about the feelings of others.”
Here’s the thing, when someone insults me, I tend to assume that THEY aren’t interested in reason and open-mindedness. Ironic? Where do you get this notion of fair-play that says that you can insult southerners, pretty much as a group, and then complain if they don’t act interested in reason and open-mindedness?
Wait, I think I know: It’s okay to act like this if you think you’re really smart and you’re absolutely certain that you’re right.
Do you think the Confederate Flag should or should not continue to be flown on the grounds of the South Carolina State House? (answered by black South Carolinians)
Strongly feel it SHOULD continue to fly: 14.5%
Somewhat feel it SHOULD continue to fly: 12.8%
I have tried to say this in several different ways throughout the thread. Here it is in stark black and white:
If the question is “Should I fly the Confederate flag,” then it does not matter what the flag means to the person asking the question. Instead, it matters what the consequences of flying the flag are.
As I and others have said several times in several ways–even if the person flying the flag has not one single racist thought in his head, they still shouldn’t fly it, because of what the flag does to the vast majority of people who find themselves in its presence.
Even if the person flying it associates it, genuinely and wholeheartedly and only, with peace, love, and happiness for all, then they still shouldn’t fly it because of what the flag does to the vast majority of people who find themselves in its presence.
The question of the flag’s “meaning” is really a red herring (unless people want to get into a cool deep conversation about the meaning of “meaning” but typically people don’t want to go there). Since it’s a question about what we should or shouldn’t do, the chief consideration–really, the only consideration–is the effect the action will have.
Flying this particular flag, in the vast, vast vast majority of actual (not theoretical) cases, has no good effects that come anywhere near the ill effects that attend on its continued use.
There seems to be an extra “you” in there. So, are you calling me by my name, or are you calling me my name?
Oh, I’m quite sure that they should be able to. I think it may even be one of the founding principles of the USA. I think.
Please go back and read my first post in this thread, and you’ll see that you are mischaracterizing my position on the confederate flag. My position is that it should go, for the exact reason you are alluding to. But it should go because southerners choose a better way to express themselves, not because they are forced to.
And this great clamor of people denouncing southern people and your snide references to “southern pride” aren’t going to accomplish anything other than generating more angry defiance from insulted southerners. Here’s an idea: Start with the assumption that a great many southerners–even southerners who like the confederate flag–are something other than ignorant racist assholes, and proceed from there.
I’m curious why you’re consistently confusing “Southerners as a whole,” with “People who fly the Confederate flag.” Outside of a childhood trip to DisneyWorld, I’ve never spent any time in the South at all, but I’ve always had the impression that those were two separate groups.
How are - you - being insulted if someone has a problem a flag SPECIFICALLY used by the CSA and Segregationists? Again - I am not saying “rednecks” are racist I am saying the Confederate Flag, dubbed the Slavery Flag on another thread (a title that fits perfectly), the Slavery Flag is INDEED incredibly incredibly racist. How are - you - insulted when someone points this out?
We understand each other perfectly, we just don’t agree.
To use your own suggestion, I suggest you stop thinking about how you, yourself, view “southern pride” and instead take a real, honest, completely honest look at what has happened in the south. And do not allow yourself the rationalization, well, good things happened too. At the end of the day you either accept a realistic version of the past or you ignore it/try to re write it.
First, I’ll cop to being uncareful with my wording. It’s more like a product, so to speak, of number of people times intensity of the bad effects.
But second: the statement could be maintained as it is, though I didn’t mean it this way, since part of what it “does to people” isn’t just things like adding to the degree to which a person lives in anxiety or even fear, or whatever, but also, encouraging a person to think that declaring one’s racism as a public value is AOK."
And on the latter reading, yes, it covers pretty much everybody likely to come into contact with one of these things. For most people, finding the symbol in their environment does something unquestionably bad to them–adds to fearfulness, encourages racism, makes them rightly angry, etc etc.
I mean that it has already been tried before, many, many, many, many, many, many, times. Please stop pretending that it hasn’t. 50+ years and it is still an issue. How much more time/patience do you need?
And if I had a problem with what YOU were saying, I would have said so.
Well, there’s a positive effect: It really pisses off northerners. And I don’t think you can underestimate how satisfying that is to some southerners. The downside is that it also is a message of intimidation to black people. What we have to do is convince more southerners that the pleasure of pissing off northerners isn’t worth the price of suggesting that we have racist beliefs. I don’t think insulting southerners is going to get us there.
And I don’t think stern “What you’re doing is unacceptable” lectures are really making much headway, either.
Right now, there’s enough overlap that the racists can hide with the non-racists. We’ve got to convince the non-racists to be more willing to isolate the racists. And we need more of the really racist older generation to finish growing old and dying.
That one guy with questionable Jewish ancestry (and non-Jew according to Judaism) became a Field Marshal in Luftwaffe? Or that **one **Jew bizarrely joined a neo-Nazi group? Rare exceptions.
What about 27% of black citizens of South Carolina that support flying the Confederate flag where it is. You can hardly call that a rare exception - can you?
There was a time when, after spending a large part of my childhood in Virginia, I considered myself a Virginian of the better class (forgive me, I was a kid). Along with my strong Yankee affinity (it was the time of civil rights and the ACW centennial and I wasn’t really from down there), I did not look on the people of the southern states with much respect. They were–how do you say it?–cannon fodder. Hot-headed folks willing to die to protect the way of life of their betters–Virginians.
But that was fifty, or one-hundred fifty, years ago. I’ve grow up, but why haven’t they? Why are so many of them stuck in 1861? It didn’t work then, and it’s forlorn now. If there weren’t so much anger and hatred and bloodshed still involved it would be silly and we could laugh at them like we do Truthers and Birthers. But we cannot. What we can do is make people aware of what evil that rag represents, and make it outre and flying it shameful. They should be ashamed. They have lived too long in the Southern echo chamber, where lies about the Confederacy and its flags have been told so often generations have grown and died believing them. It can stop now, but it’s not likely to. Stupid is as stupid does.
Well, one is a subset of the other. And there’s no tall fence separating us. So, when you (the general “you”) insult confederate flag wavers, you’re not insulting me specifically, but you’re insulting family and friends. Some of them ARE ignorant racists. Some of them aren’t.
But there is no such thing as a regional identity. Well, there is, but to tie your personal identity to where you are from and from the norms of that culture is not really defining YOU. Believe me, I know what I am talking about. I am a progressive and I lived in NYC for 15 years. I got heavy duty identity out of being a “New Yorker” but since moving away I realize it is foolish to define yourself by a region of where you live. Or by the books and music and movies you like. Or by your Job. External methods of identification are flawed, severely flawed, not only is it an inaccurate way to define yourself, it also leads to tribalism and thought of my group vs other groups. There is just one group. People.
