I think this proves my point.
Sure. Ignorance is one possible explanation for someone waving the flag. Someone that doesn’t know the flag’s history might, until they’re told the flag’s history, rely on that as a defense. But once they learn that history, that defense is no longer available to them.
Same thing with the Klan hood. If someone doesn’t know its history, they may rely on their ignorance as a defense, up to the moment when they learn that history.
There is a clear difference here, I admit: there’s a major cultural movement to lying about and obfuscating the history of the flag, a movement not attached to the hood. So it’s a lot likelier that someone is ignorant of the flag’s history than of the hood’s history. It’s a lot likelier that the ignorance defense is available to flag-wavers.
I have two responses to that:
- It’s not as available a defense as it might have been a decade ago. I think a lot of folks really know that the flag is associated with a history of pernicious racism, even if they don’t know the details.
- Even if that defense is available to someone, the best thing to do is to eliminate their ignorance. An analogy to the Klan hood may be a helpful tool in that process.
Please. Everyone knows that the Midwest’s symbol is jello salad!
But it’s not on our flag.
I like mine with lime Jello and pineapple chunks. I may be the person who got them to put the “canned pineapple only” warning on the box.
Yes because in a population of some 30 million you aren’t gonna find some eccentrics/self-haters/whatever.
There’s this guy who despite being half-Jewish rose to be a Luftwaffe Field Marshal in the Third Reich: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Milch
There are neo-Nazis in Israel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrol_36
Even if people learn that some people associate it with racism and slavery that does not mean they will internalize that for themselves. It seems like there is a lot of theory on this subject and living in the deep south for many years and actually knowing the people that are being called racist and pro slavery would dispel some of this theory.
Just as an anecdote, the most racist place I’ve lived is the Mid West. And the Confederate Flag is rare there.
octopus, your insisting on focusing on what the symbol means to the wearer, but it can be just as important, and in fact can be more important, what it means to other people.
As I said above–the person using the CF may have not a single racist bone in his body yet, if he wants to be a decent person, should refrain from using the flag once he learns about its history and the present effects of its use. If he insists on using it because it doesn’t mean anything racist “to him,” then he is doing something racist (whether he’s racist on the inside or not) and also, is being a jerk.
You know, if you really want to express your disgust with the Confederate battle flag, show it by deliberately flying it upside-down.
Because the idea is if a word or symbol has intrinsic meanings which is what I reject. A word or a symbol is not intrinsically racist.
And no he isn’t doing anything racist at all even if educated because for it to be racist it has to fulfill the definition of what racist is. Again, calling someone “boy” as in “shine my shoes, boy.” can be far more racist than waving a flag because that aspect of an act depends upon the internal belief of the person doing it. It’s a simple concept.
Murder is bad. One might kill someone who is black because you hate blacks that would be racist. One might kill someone who is black just because one is bored. That would make the killer a psychopath or whatever. It’s not the act that defines the term when it comes to racism, it’s the motivation behind the act and how can one be so arrogant as to tell another how they think?
At the point where someone knows that the flag was created to be a symbol for brutal subjugation of black people, and was multiple times in history resurrected as a symbol for this same purpose, and that millions of people know about this history and interpret the symbol the way its users have historically intended that it be interpreted, that person has a choice to make.
They may decide that appearing to millions of people as supportive of brutal subjugation of black people is okay: it’s worth appearing that way in order to communicate to a smaller subset of people whatever message they want to communicate.
Or they may decide that it’s not worth it.
If a person makes the former choice–“Sure, lots of people will interpret this as a sign that I’m racist, but that’s cool”–I’m not sure that it automatically means they’re racist (although it seems likely many folks are cool with that because they don’t value the opinions of black people highly). It does mean they’re an asshole.
I hear some white folks from SC and other parts of the South saying that this guy, Roof, doesn’t represent them. That may be true, but if you really want us non-Southerners to believe that, you should take down that flag. We know why it was created, and we know why it was brought back in the 1960s. Leave it up, and we have to wonder just how much of Roof is in each and avery one of you.
And if that isn’t an argument that appeals to you, why are you keeping this symbol up that is repulsive to a huge portion of your population? What good does it serve that outweighs the terrible, awful bad feelings that it creates?
You state that as if those are facts. However, what you are saying is a matter of opinion and if you had ever lived in the South you would find your opinions contradicted by facts. Facts that illustrate that world is not a simplistic, black and white place. Kanye West sure hates black people. However many people who display that flag are either racists or assholes? It’s more likely your assertion is wrong.
Now one reason that I’ve heard is spite. There are those who know it pisses off people not from the South and wear it spitefully. And there are those who see it as an anti authority symbol. Being perceived as being repulsive to the North is not a deterrent to many that I know.
Then they shouldn’t have any problem with the perception that Roof represents the average South Carolina citizen.
It’s not repulsive to the North. Speaking for myself, it looks stupid. It’s repulsive to the large minority of black people living in the state. Your fellow South Carolinians. Not me.
That’s from the exact same interview where he talks about it looking cool, and being a fashion thing. Like I said, lip service.
OMG, he’s so edgy!!!
Not intrinsically, just historically and geographically. Case in point - the word kaffir originally , and intrinsically, meant just non-Islamic. Historically, though, it was used in South Africa virtually identically to the way nigger was used in the South. So historically it’s racist, and anyone using it in South Africa has to live with the consequences of that historically-acquired meaning (which are actually much worse than use of nigger in America - no-one’s even trying to “take it back” here.) But use it in Sri Lanka and there’s no racist meaning.
Similarly, there are historically-acquired, geographically-linked meanings for the Swastika. Or the burning cross. Or wearing the colour green or the colour orange. Or pointy white hoods.
Same-same for the flag in question.
Secretly, he’s a huge Guns 'n Roses fan…
Yup.
The Capirote: the white hood worn by the Spanish Nazarenos during Holy Week.