Someone wearing an FDR badge had better to be willing to deal with the consequences of racist internment of Japanese.
Now: What are the consequences?
I’ve lived outside of the South for 4 years. Otherwise I’m steeped in Southern culture. I know what I’m talking about. And I’m perfectly comfortable with what my argument implies about Kanye West.
Edit: although there’s a different dynamic at play when a black person wears the flag than when a white person wears the flag, so maybe I’m not entirely comfortable with what it implies. I’d have to think more on that. Let me pour some coffee.
Yes, that’s also a good example.
I am having trouble following your meaning. Can you give me one or two examples of specific statements LHoD made which you are saying are false?
(And FYI FWIW I am also a born-and raised Southerner.)
Well, I did say that people who, knowing the flag’s odious history, continue to fly it, are assholes. His response appears to be, “But that’s just, like, your opinion, man.” Which is technically true–I could use this when I teach the idea of facts vs. opinions to third graders–but is also not much of a rejoinder.
I’ve personally used similar arguments to successfully convince some of my fellow southerners that they should not fly the Confederate flag in public.
“Whatever the swastika means to you, if you display the swastika where Jews might see it, you’re being an asshole and an extremely rude neighbor. And whatever the Confederate flag means to you, if you display it where black people might see it, you’re being an asshole and an extremely rude neighbor. You have the right to do so, but why would you choose to do so? Wouldn’t you prefer to not be an asshole and an extremely rude neighbor?”
Acknowledging that interning the Japanese was a bad thing.
There’s a thing about how peoples who migrated along the same latitude were able to take their crops with them, and people who migrated north-south (mostly, people in the Americas) couldn’t.
What crops would those be? Seems like the staples…wheat, potatoes and corn grow in a wide range of latitudes or is this because of modern agriculture?
If you can’t see the difference between a mass murderer and someone who may or may not have a Confederate flag on a belt buckle the problem is with you.
Actually according to many on this board he is pro slavery, racist, and an asshole with no possibility that he may have his own perfectly valid reasons. Why? Because arrogantly held opinions trump fact.
What facts are you talking about specifically? What people on this board are you talking about specifically? I suggest you read more carefully.
You and others, including myself, may guess at a motive and express such guess as to why a person uses a word or displays a symbol that is on the surface controversial, taboo, or offensive to many. That does not change what ever motivation or intent exists in the one that is saying the word or displaying the symbol. That motivation even if unknown to you or myself is a fact and is not changed by what we assert.
So, with that said if I see a Confederate flag on some dude’s hat I’m not concerned nor do I make any judgement. If I see hammer or sickle or a picture of Che I’m not concerned. I’m not even that concerned to see a lovely picture of Mao. Reason being is that where I have seen them in college it’s people who probably haven’t internalized the tens of millions of deaths that those symbols represent to me at least and so I take no offense even though genocide and mass murder and the regimes that commit them are offensive.
Now if I were to converse with those folks and they state that, yes they do support the murder and oppression of those regimes, my opinion then changes and it’s not because of the shirt. I will say, inconsistently perhaps, that if I see someone with a Nazi flag and it’s not a WWII reenactment or a war gaming club I’m a lot more concerned. Same with the Klan hood. I’ve already stated the reasons above and I try not to be super redundant.
I think I do read carefully and I* try* to write carefully and I actually have an open mind which I see is lacking around here. I find it ironic you’d suggest I read more carefully when I understand your argument perfectly, though I reject details of it, yet you misunderstand some of the simple sentences I write. Which I find suspect, because I feel if I dig a bit, I may be able to find you making the same argument I have made but with regards to a different symbol, religion, or word.
I wonder how those who feel that the Confederate Flag is intrinsically racist and pro slavery feel about a whole doctrine that promotes inequity and horror such as that written in the Koran and parts of the other Abrahamic religions.
Ooookay. Gotcha.
At this point, I think you provide an excellent example of what I’m talking about.
Which is what, exactly? And am I or am I not correct about intellectual consistency? Or are you going to resort to a veiled ad hominem attack or other tactics of ridicule and belittlement?
For what it’s worth, I don’t feel it’s intrinsically racist and/or pro-slavery. I do, however, feel it has unavoidable racist and pro-slavery connotations and people who display it are racist, or don’t care as if they appear racist.
My family is Hindu. I would be horrified if my mother put a bumper-sticker swastika on her car.
Me, resort to a veiled ad hominem? What would I say? Maybe I could make a veiled accusation that you’re close-minded, something like
Or I could imply that you’re unable to read simple text, saying something like
Perhaps instead I could insinuate that you’re a hypocrite, saying something like
Yes, please, tell me about my veiled ad hominems.
Here’s a thought to ponder.
Can anyone here think of a reason why southerners might want a flag that represents them? And note why most other regions in the US don’t feel the need so much?
You mean white southerners, right? Because overwhelmingly black southerners aren’t clamoring for a flag to represent them. For that matter, neither are white southerners.
But the subset of white southerners who want a flag? Sure, I can think of a reason: pathological mythic ancestor worship. Their ancestors staked everything on a fight to continue a brutally evil system, and more or less lost (I’ve heard an interesting argument that they won the Reconstruction, but that’s another thread). Some white southerners haven’t come to grips with the monstrous evil of that struggle, and the way they avoid that is through turning the whole thing into a fucked up Camelot story of antebellum nobility and heroic resistance to the Northern Aggression. The flag is like the holy symbol of this quasi-religious movement.
What you quoted is in response to this. Keep things in context please.
It seems like, on this board, one will be attacked for suggesting that those who use a symbol that some find distasteful might have their own reasons. Seems rather hostile and counterproductive to having any form of useful discussion.
We are obviously not going to convince each other, but do you think it appears reasonable to call one an “asshole” or “racist” without knowing the person? Do you think you will convince people that are on the margins or just gain points with your self-righteous tribe? My point of view and approach is to be reasonable and give people the benefit of doubt. You just want to lump everyone into a broad category and throw stones. I don’t think that works in the long term.
And would you behave in the same way, consistently, with other ideologies, words, and symbols that in the now are responsible for thousands of deaths, slavery, rape, torture, and very strict intolerance? Or would you say such things need to be examined in context? Is there a certain critical mass in which an idea gets protection due to fear or power?
By ‘parts of the other Abrahamic religions,’ I guess you mean the Torah and Christian Bible?
It’s odd that you’d bring up the Koran - I’m not sure I see the point - but it’s *really *odd that you single it out as a “doctrine that promotes inequity and horror.”
Why’d you do that?