Wrong reason.
Try again.
Of course it is. I never knew Hitler, but it’s unreasonable NOT to call him a racist. I never new Genghis Khan, but it’s unreasonable NOT to call him an asshole.
We call people these terms based on their ACTIONS. Obviously Hitler and Genghis are extreme examples. But in lesser cases, I can make similar claims. Someone that says that Arabs are a bunch of savages, even if I don’t know them–even in the abstract–I’m comfortable saying they’re racist. Somebody chats on their cell phone during a movie, they’re an asshole.
And I suspect you make similar judgments, too. Making such judgments is part of being a human. You have heuristics to determine whether someone’s an asshole, someone’s close-minded, someone’s intelligent, etc.
This is basic level shit here.
Please lecture me again about ad hominems! It’ll go great with your lecture about how to persuade people, because right now you’re real persuasive.
Obviously :).
This is bullshit. I’m not lumping everyone into a broad category, I’m lumping the people who use a particular symbol into one of several categories, based on why they use the symbol. It’s just that none of the categories are particularly positive.
Of course not, and I can’t believe you’ve read the thread if you’d ask that question.
I’ve repeatedly drawn a distinction between organizations whose entire purpose is the commission of evil (the Klan, the Confederacy, Soviet Secret Police, the Inquisition) and organizations whose entire purpose is not the commission of evil (the Republican Party, the United States, the Soviet Union, the Catholic Church). If you’d like to argue that this is an invalid distinction, be my guest; but to imply that I’m a hypocrite because I treat Islam differently from how I treat the Klan is sheer foolishness.
Ok, I have spent 90% of my life in the deep South so I can answer for myself. I don’t really like the flag. I don’t like secessionist movements. I don’t like slavery. It’s a shame that slavery existed in any form and that it still exists to this day.
I have seen that flag down here as long as I’ve been down here and I have seen Hispanic, black and white display it in various forms. And all these groups have included some form of racists in their midst but that’s independent of the flag display. The openly white racists I have known don’t limit themselves to the Confederate flag. No, they also collect Neo Nazi type stuff. Stuff like SS insignia etc. That’s the clear signal.
But when the Confederate flag can be found at sporting events, colleges, memorials, buildings, clothing, cars, tv shows (including the Muppets), toys etc etc etc it becomes part of the background and after awhile you just don’t think about it. Again it’s like “my nigga”, when playing sports I hear that or some variation of that perhaps 100 times a day. It begins to lose meaning. Now that doesn’t mean I’m rolling into some random hood and shouting it. Lol, no. But on a basketball court where it’s freely used no one would be shocked if I used it.
But here’s the thing. Even though the word is heard 100 times a day when I’m active in sports, I am aware of the historical context and I have been taught that it’s a hurtful word, so I very rarely if ever use the word even in an environment in which it’s expected. I honestly don’t even like typing it here. It feels dirty. But I’m not going to tell others how to use a word or what they mean when they do. I just don’t possess that form of arrogance.
This is the right way to go. I think they display it because (to them) the flags opponents can be assholish and like a stubborn child they arent going to let it go just because someone tells them.
No thanks. I’m fresh out of mindreading powers. You have something to say, put it out there. Otherwise, find someone else to play your guessing games.
Historically speaking, the Abrahamic religions have been quite harsh. At the moment Islam is quite harsh. I wouldn’t single out Islam or the Koran if we had brutality in the name of Christianity or Judaism currently occurring at the same, or near the same, scale.
I think the term ‘religion’ for some reason lends a certain credibility to ideologies. It’s like people get caught up in the idea of devout men in robes performing mystical ceremonies and saving souls and aren’t willing to shine a critical light as harshly if the concepts were labelled something else.
Oh, the irony. I guess you and few other posters here finally emptied that gas tank. Though I do suspect you all will find more gas when its philosphically convient.
All of this is very reasonable.
Here’s my one issue, a statement like “Arabs are a bunch of savages” has a pretty clear and unambiguous meaning. Whoever is making that statement could very well be bigoted. Is likely to be such. They might not mean it but I wouldn’t debate the bigotry of that statement. In the South displaying the Confederate flag is far more nuanced. It is a symbol used to demonstrate racism. It is concurrently also a symbol people use that has nothing to do, in their minds, with racism. And that’s why I don’t paint those people who fly it with a broad brush.
Believe me, if this were a debate about the Klan hood I’d be on your on side.
And some day I need to learn how to multi-quote a single post all fancy like you. I had to manually format that one quote cause my quote-fu is so weak.
You think? I mean, don’t go out on a limb here.
I’m not painting them with a broad brush, either. I’ve described at least three categories they can fit in, and intimated a fourth. Here are the categories, again:
- White supremacists: people who know some of the flag’s history and fly it to echo that history.
- Ignoramuses: people who don’t know the flag’s history and fly it for other reasons.
- Assholes: people who know the flag’s history and fly it despite knowing that history.
The fourth category I’ve intimated, but am not sure what I think about it:
4) Black people reclaiming it: it’s possible there are black people who fly it as a giant fuck you to the racist history of the flag.
You seem to be suggesting there’s some other category, but I’m not sure what it is. I suspect the third category is one you’d like to relabel. Is that correct? If so, on what grounds? I’m uninterested in vague “other reasons” people might have for flying the flag. What specific other reasons could someone have that are more important than not flying a symbol honoring one of the most brutally violent regimes of the past several centuries?
I would disagree with your definition of 3 though it’s definitely correct at least some of the time. But it’s your right to use the word as you wish.
Why don’t we call it the ‘Muppet’ category.
Unless, of course, you decide with your amazing ability (which is, apparently, infallible) to discern others motives that the Muppets are full on racists.
Slee
You are aware that time is a thing, right? And that it passes in a more-or-less linear fashion? And that the picture you posted here is from 1980? And that 1980 was 35 years ago?
I mean, you grok all that, right?
Assuming you do, are you honestly suggesting that The Muppets will display a CSA flag of any sort when it begins airing this September?
It’s not so much as the meaning has evolved since 1980, especially since 1980 was even closer to the Civil War. It’s that the means in which a vocal group can amplify their voices have changed. We live in an era where a principal can be fired for supporting the police because of “outrage.”
I’m entirely aware of that skit. Why do you think Cash was not in the “ignoramus” category?
For fuck’s sake, this is pitiful. I never said I was infallible. The only way we can know folks’ motives is through the symbols (words, flags, body language, etc.) they use to communicate with. Are you some Lacanian or something, some French postmodernist who thinks we can never discern the minds of others? If someone uses a symbol, I’ll interpret it. I even offered four possible interpretations. SO quit your whining.
Of course you can discern the minds of others, with enough cues. That is precisely why words and symbols are to be judged in context and not as “ermagerd that’s racist!!!1” So you can make an accurate and not prejudiced decision.
The text in quotes is a terrible summary of my position. Do you understand why? Please refer to post 149 if you’re confused.
It was a lot closer to 1962 as well. Times change, and public perception changes. In 1980 I thought the General Lee and the Haunted Tank were badass. I have close family ties to Marse Robert and Stratford Hall. I didn’t think a single racist thing about the southern cross. I was also seven years old.
But I guess you’re just dismissing the issue as being, what? Just stupid “political correctness?”
Well. Uh. They are really really similar but not quite identical. A person could support the Confederate flag because :
- The individual states in the Confederacy had the “courage” to fight against the Union.
- They continued to fight long after the enormous advantages the Union had became obvious.
- Those Southern traditions, those lavish mansions and parties and customs are admirable?
Unfortunately, I’m having trouble with my own arguments. The truth is, the states in the Confederacy weren’t really “courageous” - wealthy plantation owners would have lost an enormous amount of money if the slaves were freed. The history texts estimate that the slaves were worth more than the entire value of the land and buildings of the entire South. The state governments were just mouthpieces for the wealthy, and the wealthy were willing to have poor people die by the hundreds of thousands in an effort to protect their property.
Their continuing to fight, after the Union soldiers kept showing up with more supplies, more numbers, even repeating rifles - it’s not courage to get hundreds of thousands of people killed on a lost cause. It’s stubbornness and stupidity. If they had surrendered sooner, more of the South would have been left intact.
Those lavish parties and traditions that the wealthy white people followed? They are nothing to admire, they are extravagances that were only affordable *because *they chained millions of people and forced them to work for free. Being a “Southern gentleman” - where you dress in expensive clothes, open doors for women, and fight to the death in duels if someone says something insulting enough - is not particularly admirable, either. (the reason you had to open doors for women is they were swaddled up in so much impractical clothing that they had trouble doing anything)
The white hoods mean “let’s frighten and murder black people anonymously cuz they are black”, which there is obviously zero to admire about it. It also means an imminent threat - admiring the Confederacy 150 years in the past doesn’t mean you want to harm black people today.
I had thought the “confederate flag” we’re referring to here basically wasn’t used during the actual Civil War except by one army from a single state, and that it gained its prominence precisely because it was adopted as a symbol for the KKK, and re-introduced in many southern states during the Civil Rights period as a symbol of their fight against black rights. Is that incorrect?
As I understand it, it was the flag Robert E. Lee marched under–a pretty significant flag even during the war. It later, of course, became the flag that the Klan adopted. I assume they adopted it because they considered themselves a continuation of the Confederate army, but I"m not sure about that; the important thing is that the Klan considered it the best symbol available to them from the war.
So it works as a symbol both of the Klan and of the pro-slavery rebellion, and has perhaps an even more evil history than just the hood.