Well, the reason you said that they had no free will was that since they know the Bible is true, and they know they’re going to lose, they’d be idiots not to give up now. In fact, it is insane to even rebel against a bi-omni god in the first place. If God made Satan insane, then you can’t blame Satan. An alternative is that God is not bi-omni - conflict among the Greek and Norse gods makes sense because they are fallible. If that’s the case, then your God is not really god. The most plausible explanation is that it is a myth, added to over time by people not very good at maintaining logical consistency.
Nice, says the deer. Eve screws up and I get torn apart by wolves. Nice God you got there. No wonder animals don’t go to church.
I quite agree. Yet God does, so you must agree that God is dark/evil. Welcome to the dark side.
< 2 days in hell, actually, and the old legends say he harrowed it, and didn’t suffer it. Hard to suffer an eternity of torment in 2 days also. Got any Biblical justification for this, by the way? I thought Jesus died for your sins, not suffer afterwards for them. At this point you’re making things up, methinks.
The fevered imaginations of primitives, of course. You must introduce me to one of your demon friends someday. I thought they used to cause diseases, but they seem to have been expunged.
The scriptures did not state that Satan was condemed till after it happened, by then it was too late. Remember the scriptures were revealed as time went on. It’s not like at 10 BC Satan could get a copy of Revelation and decide that crucifying God’s Son is a really bad idea, as it didn’t happen yet, it was not written yet.
Allowing it to happen is not the same as doing it yourself. We are given dominion over the animals, we are also accountable for them.
The biblical justification is that the Father demands righteousness (or equity) in His judgement. I could find the verse to that effect i’m sure but it may take some digging.
You probably have met some already and didn’t even realize it. A lot left the medical field and entered different technologies as they were invented, there currently a high demand for them in the auto industry road rage division and also need in the child porn industry - it seems like the internet bubble didn’t burst for them like for us.
Doesn’t explain why Satan would rebel against an omnipotent being, or why he doesn’t give it up today. At the time of Job, though, he was God’s good buddy, so the timeline is a bit confusing.
Cockfighters don’t injure the roosters themselves, but put them into a place where they get hurt, which is just what God does. They may encourage them cocks to fight, but God encourages the suffering of prey by making the predators hungry. Same deal. Vick is evil not just because he killed dogs, but also because he staged the fights.
Nah, I believe humans can be plenty nasty without any help. If demons were responsible for disease, and they left, how come we still get sick?
I just finished working on a nasty hardware bug in a processor, and if no demons showed up in the photo-micrographs of the region of silicon with the bug, they aren’t anywhere.
Why as to why Satan would rebel against God, it is a common belief he was jelious of God and wanted to be God. What would be the point of giving up, he is already condemned? At the time of Job Satan didn’t crucify God’s only Son yet, so I don’t see the problem with the timeline.
If you believe (without support from Genesis, I might add) that the serpent was Satan, then this must have happened after the rebellion. Job was after this.
Again, I think you’re missing the point. No matter how you’ve put it, you seem to agree yourself that one is less clear than the other. I get that you think both are clear - but you also seem to agree with me that one is more so. I’m simply saying there should be no imbalance at all.
I thought so. So really it’s only one Jesus-present situation we have to compare, not two.
Except of course that those beings are us. And we didn’t get to make that choice. It’s more like Satan being the prodigal son and murdering, taunting, and generally being a bad egg to all the father’s friends. At some point you have to stop and ask why exactly he, the worst enemy who must be frustrated in his efforts, gets the special treatment and we don’t. Especially since the special treatment seems to have been God’s original plan for us anyway.
Undone by capitalisation. “God” refers to a specific god, one with characteristics but who cannot, as you say, be categorised. Thus the god that they believe there is evidence for to exist must be lie, because we cannot understand him and cannot categorise him. I mean, even that’s a categorisation; what it all boils down to is “there may be something, but we have absolutely no idea whatsoever what that is” - and you have to pick that up and run with it in order to become a true believer? Seems backwards to me; first you believe in the being, then you follow it, not the other way around.
It’s like a voice out of the darkness saying “Follow me, though you know nothing of me”; I wouldn’t be inclined to trust such a voice. And since me believing in him is God’s goal (assumption), it’s not a very good method. The flaw may of course be on my end rather than his, but you have to play to your audience.
Why not?
It’s a gift of dominion over the beings he loves to his worst enemy. It’s a gift that doesn’t need to be given, and wouldn’t be expected to be given, and has no apparent motivation other than two of those beings defied him once. Why isn’t that an impressive gift?
But we shouldn’t have to ask, or at least, we should be on equal terms with A&E, who didn’t have to ask. If God had put them in the same position, then hey, it would make much more sense. But nope, he chooses to put us in a position of automatic condemnation as opposed to, say, lovely gardens with the occasional slithery beast.
I’m not arguing that Satan can’t take us into slavery. Of course he can. He’s (presumably) an immensely powerful being. Likewise, I can certainly take my fellow human beings into slavery, assuming i’m powerful enough.
Is this really your explanation for it? It’s alright that Satan gets to be our slaveowner, because he’s all powerful 'n shit? Well, there’s nothing stopping God from saying “Er, actually, i’m kinda against that whole “evil” thing. Also, I think you’re an ass. No humans for you!”. It’d be much more in character. Yet he appears to act in ways quite unrighteous.
Free will and our respective “rankings” are two totally different things. God also gave us free will, and we as a group did not choose to go away from him. And we still get a chance of redemption. So why is he higher than us? You’re seeming a lot more Satanist than many Satanists, here.
Great! Not Satan’s kingdom after all. How relieved am I.
Ok, i’m still not really following you on this one. Does this mean that any believers in God who died before Jesus came along completely died and didn’t get this offer? And this means that you can do whatever evil act you want in life, as long as you believe in Jesus you’re fine and dandy?
I’d point you to that last part. Restore us to to bodies like those of A&E. Unlike them, who existed with them right off the bat. Again, it’s a double standard, and holding us accountable for their decision is wrong. Depending on how uncategorisable God is at this particular moment, anyway.
Revenant Threshold Your post made me look at the evolution of Satan’s fall and have come up with the following, this is just a WAG here, but it is interesting at least to me.
[start WAG]
When God left A&E in the garden alone with Satan, Satan was a free willed being, but our care was left in his hands, Satan, being a angel should have enough power to take care of A&E, and it is in God’s character to trust Satan with more then enough power and responsibility to accomplish his task. Satan saw fit to show man the secrets of being their own god, which means they will be able to do good or evil and be responsible for their decisions.
This was at the time where Satan and God started to split apart, doing something that God would not approve of, but God will allow Satan to follow his plan to it’s completion.
This introduced death due to sin into the world, as man is just not capable of not sinning.
Satan seems to be doing pretty well for a while, as everyone sinned so death is acceptable. At the time of Job, Job was close to living a sinless life. This caused great problem for Satan as the death would be unjustified. God blessed Job greatly, and Satan went before the throne of God with a petition that the only reason Job has not sinned was because of the great blessings, remove them and Job will curse you (like every other man). God allowed this, and Satan tried to get Job to curse God, which Job did not, however Job did sin (thorugh idle words) and his death was justified.
So far Satan’s vision of man was doing pretty good, all sinned, all died - nothing wrong so far as far as righteousness went. Though God was very sad at this as He does love us and hates what we have to endure.
Jesus is born into the world, Satan tried to temp Him, Satan fails. Satan is in big trouble, God has thrauted Satan’s plans and Satan know it. Satan really starts to hate God, for ruining his plans, but can’t do anything at all against God, but he can get at God’s Son, which he does out of anger, and by doing so has not only destroyed the every man has sinned so death is justified paradyne, but did so in a way that accomplished many more things. The unjustified death is why Satan stands condemned.
But until Satan’s defeat (as he did establish his own kingdom), he is still free to turn us away from God.
In scriptures we see this progression of Satan, and why he wasn’t mentioned that much at first.
Revenant Threshold I agree that the believer can see God better then the non-believer, and also A&E knew God better then us. This does set up at least the appearance of unfairness. I don’t think unfairness alone is enough to get one off the hook however. Nor am I sure that it is a contradiction, just a apparent contradiction.
You seem to be along the lines that if the scriptures are true is it really rotten of God to not start us all off on the same footing. I suspect that Satan come into play here with his sin and death plan for the world, and the free will and responsibility God allows in every one of his beings.
Also another apparent contradiction, remember that if you seek you will find - this is your free will part, and at the same time God has to call you. So when you start looking for God, God will be there and will call you to Him.
This is not typical with God, however this is with demons. It’s not you know nothing of me, but everything He tells you radiated with the truth, something that you know to be true and part of you.
During the OT the dead went to the place of the dead, it was not assumed to be Hell. In the NT it was assumed to be Hell. Satan’s condemnation may have changed this from a sort of a resting place to eternal torment. I’m not sure where the souls of the dead of the OT times are.
For the second part, it is a bit complex. It’s just not to believe in your head, but your heart. This starts a transition where you are surrendered to Christ as your Lord. You no longer serve yourself (which is Satan’s plan for man), but serve God. You have surrendered your will to God and God will break it for you. You live to advance His kingdom.
Can you still sin - yes, usually called backsliding, are you still saved - yes. Can you lose salvation - unknown/disputed but I believe so.
Yes, isn’t it fun making up religious stories based on half understood previous stories.
But guess what, the bits you based your WAG on are also just WAGs based on previous WAGs.
The Bible is not a history book.
Do you believe that if you pick out bits and pieces, rearrange them in a line that fits your fancy, that you have stumbled on some hidden truth?
By all means write it down and in 100 years we will have the book of Kanic added to the bible and it will be read as gospel.
I haven’t really though about Satan’s evolution till RT brought it up, but it does fit in what he asked, as to why suffering is allowed by God. God allows us to do thing on our own, and lets the effects happen, this is true for man, but it seems like this may also true for Satan.
As for if the Bible is history, for our spiritual journey it doesn’t seem to matter:
Except that Paul (or whoever wrote 2 Timothy) never wrote any such thing; it’s a significant error in translation. 2 Tim 3:15-18 are one long sentence referencing, as is clear from context, the Tanakh (Protestant Old Testament/Jewish Bible), with the underscored portions of the above phrases in apposition to “the [Jewish] Scriptures,” and most of the rest supplied by the translators. 2 Tim 3:16 is often taken out of context to refer to the present 66-book Bible, a truly nasty bit of Bibliolatrous eisegesis.
“God” refers to a specific god, one with characteristics but who cannot, as you say, be categorised. Thus the god that they believe there is evidence for to exist must be lie, because we cannot understand him and cannot categorise him. I mean, even that’s a categorisation; what it all boils down to is “there may be something, but we have absolutely no idea whatsoever what that is” - and you have to pick that up and run with it in order to become a true believer? Seems backwards to me; first you believe in the being, then you follow it, not the other way around.