What I should’ve included before was this: "In my experience"
Sorry about the less-than-precise post.
Paganism comes in many stripes, from the ancient Romans and Greeks, to the Zoarastrians, to Animists, to Shamanism, to Druidism, to Witchcraft, to Ancestor Worship, and beyond.
“Wicca” seems to be the newest up-and-coming trend, but it’s hardly the only pagan religion, nor does it bear much resemblance to early-Christian era witchcraft. Due to persecution by the Catholic Church, much of ancient witchcraft has been irretrievably lost. The modern forms of worship in Wicca vary from elaborate rituals to simple meditation (this is the form with which I’m familiar). It’s an mix of pre-Christian religions concerned with goddess worship, half-remembered folk wisdom, and modern interpretations.
All religions, including Christianity, include attempts to discern and influence divine will. Wiccans may or may not cast “spells”, Animists and Shamen may have their trances, and Christians have their prayers.
Ever get down on your knees and pray? That’s a call for God’s attention, via our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. To some, formal prayer might look just like spell casting, with fewer props than most, but intrinsically no different. I don’t think so, but I’m hardly an unbiased reporter, either.
Clarification-I used the word Wicca often because I’ve found it to be applied to huge number of diverse ideas and practices. I do not maintain that all Wiccans, or all Wicca, are the same. In my personal experience most Pagans/Wiccans (some maintain that the two words are interchangable. Some insist they have distinct and seperate meanings) cast spells, do spells, make spells, craft spells, engage in spellwork, practice magic, practice magick, practice the craft of the wise, or practice witchcraft.
"If you ask God to do something, that's prayer. If you do it yourself, that's magic."
Vanilla-Could you define "evil spirits"? Would the Greco/Roman gods qualify? The Norse/teutonic gods? The Hindu gods?
I've never known a witch/yadda who ever uttered the words "I summon evil spirits".
And at this point I'd like to mention something that is usually overlooked. The Biblical verse is NOT "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." It is "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live *among you*." The Bibe does not condemn witches to death. It commands that they be banished.
Quick question-has anyone else noticed that Wicca seems to be getting somewhat “trendy”? Almost like teenage girls start saying, “Oh, what spells do YOU do?”
Yeah, and this pisses me off a lot. People who have no idea what they’re talking about, who just like to wear pentagrams and jabber. These people invariably spend more time at the mall than in the woods. They can be spotted easily and ignored.
I am friends with exactly 2 people who I consider to be Wiccans who actually have any grasp on the faith and what it is about. I’m not talking about Monotheism/Polytheism (I worship a Goddess and a God, but I recognize the Wiccans who praise only a Goddess. I believe that the Goddess and the God are two faces of Spirit, with different qualities, but actually at the center part of the same thing. Therefore I respect those who pray only to one, although it would never work for me.)
Of my 2 friends, I will only pray and work with one of them. She’s a good friend, I’ve read her book of shadows, we each have holy places that we go to and we enjoy sharing them with each other. Reading books can help, but it does not a Wiccan make. I don’t believe, Christian style, that you need only ask to have a relationship with Spirit. Go to where the world is quiet, ask Spirit’s blessing, work with Spirit. Walk the path and take the power you already have. With that power comes responsibility and consequences. With Spirit’s guidance you can easily handle that. It simply takes time, prayer, meditation, study and a willingness to connect.
Wearing a pentagram and buying a Teen Witch Kit from Barnes & Noble can start a path, but you are not even close to a Wiccan simply because you have those things.
Yes, God and Goddess help us.. I don’t object to the production of said kit on principle, but I dislike strongly what it represents. Part of me says “Hey, it’s not such a bad idea, give a basic going over of the religion, some materials, etc. I mean it’s hardly a bad thing if more people are embracing Wicca and the way of life that comes with it.”
The other part of me vomits thinking of how commercial this is, especially coming from $ilver RavenWolf, a well known cash-hound of a Witch. I acknowledge her as a learned one, but I strongly dislike her methods and commercialness. She is my least favorite person who I cansider to be an acutal member of the community.
Lucki, I agreee with you completely on the fad. How does “I think I’ll wear a religious symbol with no understanding of it’s meaning.” strike anyone as a good idea. I felt the same way about the 90’s fad of dreamcatchers-hey we haven’t raped their culture enough, lets mass produce plastic dreamcatchers!
I assumed you were using the term teen witch kit to describe a class of poor products produced solely in the interest of profit. The fact that it is a real product has me so scared I can't even wet my pants. What better way to teach teens to find their own unique spiritual path than through social fads and consumer goods!
I sometimes lay awake at night fearing a Jew fad. Just think, the backstreet boys and Nscync in yarmulkes and pais. On the upside, any teen Jew kit would have to include a mohel.
Also, I’m still waiting for an answer to my earlier post. Do you believe that Harry Potter is a Satanist? Do you believe that the universe in which the books take place is explicitly Christian? Would you have a problem with your kids reading the Narnia books, or reading T.H. White’s Arthurian books?
A “straw man” argument is one in which one person misrepresents the other person’s position or views (deliberately or not), and then argues against the false position rather than the real one.
What I was trying to say (in my oh-so-clever way) was that some of the participants of this discussion were ascribing views to you that you had not stated or implied, and that you may or may not actually hold, and then basing their rebuttals on those views.
So, for example, if I claimed that you were in favor of burning witches at the stake (something you have not claimed and presumably don’t agree with), and then launched into a diatribe about how illegal, immoral and unChristian burning people is, that would be a “straw man” argument. In essence, I would be creating a rhetorical “effigy” of you in order to knock it down, without having to refute or address any of your real arguments.
Ben: No, I do not believe Harry is a satanist. Does he Say he is in the books? Then hes not.
There is a difference, IMHO, between being a satanist and casting spells; or being in touch with evil spirits.
Astrology and spells put one in touch with the evil beings that exist. Again, IMHO; some of you don’t beleive this.
I’ve never read Narnia myself.
I am really not interested in fiction books, YMMV.
So I don’t know much about them.
Or the other one you mentioned.
Monty: Please give me the cite or link wehre ARG said this. I seem to recall he thought Chick was whack, like many of the rest of us think.
And yet you feel quite confident in condemning the LDS for being “not Christian” when they explicitly say they are Christian. Please explain; heck, just justify why this is logical in your view.
I’ll do my best, but it may have been longer than two years ago and you might recall the search function for this board only goes back two years.
No, IIRC, he posted that Chick was a bit abrupt but correct.
Okay. If he did or didn’t, no sweat. I don’t subscribe to the ChurchofArg.
I said Harry doesn’t say hes a satanist.
Anyone can Say they are christian.
But when they disagree 180 degrees with so Many things the Bible says, how can I consider them christian?
Each religion has their own book.
If you need another book besides the Bible, I don’t see how that makes your religion christian.
You yourself even said in jab1’s thread, jab1 doesn’t like MY religion either.
You didn’t say OUR religion.
The verse IS “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.”
I had confused that verse with another.
Vanilla-I ask this seriously and without malice, how do astrology and casting spells bring people into contact with evil spirits? Balaam was a wizard, but the Lord chose him as an instrument. Balaam composed the beautiful prayer Mah To Vu (It’s 10 am, I’mn having an off morning the transliteration may be off)-“How goodly are thy tent, Oh Jacob”.
Maimonides taught that a polythiest could enter heaven as long as they worshipped God along with their other gods. And that’s the conservative view. The more liberal view (which I share) is that all who are righteous, regardless of their religious beliefs, may enter heaven.
Well. Loaded question.
It stheir beliefs, which are So different from most of the beleifs of those who simply go by the Bible, which makes them a differing religion.
I will try to find a link.
Glad you caught that before I had to. Of course, you’ve just wasted my last 20 minutes spent checking umpteen versions of the Bible to see if anyone had that version.
Based on your other post, I’m guessing that you’re Jewish? I don’t have a Tanakh at work, and I haven’t actually checked for this anyway, so I don’t know how it’s translated there, but it is my understanding that the Hebrew word usually translated as “witch” or “sorceress” in the various versions of the Bible was actually a word that meant “poisoner”. Do you know enough Hebrew to confirm or deny? Or mayhaps one of our resident experts will come along to answer my question <hope, hope, hope>.
[sub]Post preview: Damn, that’s a long sentence. I get out of breath just reading it. Oh well.[/sub]
