TubaDiva:
And just how do you qualify that statement as anything other than an uncalled-for cheap shot? Nowhere in this thread have I seen Freedom act like a jerk.
Or, considering the full quote you pulled, maybe you think any man unwilling to “grovel and live in fear” shoud lose his spouse and die?
I’m keen to see your response.
grrrrrr…:wally
What was this all about? I must have missed something.
Zette
Freedom this whole paragraph got my goat:
Emphasis mine
Using a phrase like “us guys” is always going to irritate me. It implies that you have more knowledge of AWB’s situation by virture of sharing a Y chromosone than I or evilbeith do. This is simply not true. Unless one of us is communicating with him through some other channel, we are all coming to the table with the exact same information about him. In the same vein, evilbeth dosen’t have any better understanding of what is going on in his wife’s head just because she is also femle. She may recognize patterns of behavior that she shares with AWB wife, and so relate her reasons for acting that way, but evilbob might also recognize pattterns of behavior and share those as well, with just as much validity.
And by saying that you deal with women and men differently based on thier gender you seem to be claiming that men think one way and women think another way and that it is safe to make predictions based on gender. If you do think that, then the qualifier “or at least the guys I know” seems rather honerary and not heartfelt.
Talking about a “Man Handbook” implies that there is a way that “men” ought to behave and that that way is substansially different from how a woman ought to behave. That whole idea is abhorant to me: I think that there is a way that human beings ought to behave and that gender hasn’t got teh slightest thing to do with it. To say that the “man” handbook says that “men” don’t take shit sorta implys that the “woman” handbook might say something different. It might say she should take shit in the interest of harmony, and it might say that she can give shit–be a bitch and a man has no recourse but to tremble.
I thought I remebered we had crossed horns on this issue before, but now that my memory is put to the test I can’t recall the actual thread. It is entirely possible that I am confusing you with someone else (mars/venus bullshit sterotyping is probably my number 1 trigger issue) and if I did I apoligize. I still stand by my statement that you seem to be making generilizations about the role of gender in conflict resolution that I do not think are warrented. I do remember at leat on thread on how watching certain TV programs implyed something derogatory about men but were acceptable for women. I don’t think I waded into that one, but that is the sort of attitude I am talking about.
Oh, you know how it is when you read something all at once and you get your panties in a wad. 
I’m over it now.
your humble TubaDiva
No, I don’t enlighten me!
“Are you reading the recipe!?”, “Do you know what recipe to use?”, “I just asked you to brown the meat!”, “I didn’t ask you to think, I just asked you to brown the meat!”
There is no excuse for this crap.
Lucretia says:
“My totally amateur, non-psychology trained opinion is that I, and many other women like me, do this because our husbands are safe outlets. We know they’ll still love us, and stay with us, (mostly, anyway), even though we are being temporarily terrible to them. We count on being able to take it all out on them, and then make up for it later.”
So emotional abuse is fine, as long as you make up for it later? I have seen this happen firsthand, I thought the first time was a one time thing and let it go. Big mistake.
Bruises fade, cuts heal, but this kind of crap can keep hurting over and over again. You can’t put a band-aid on a bad memory. It’s like living with a timebomb, you never know what is going to set it off. It sucks, I hate it. I am a paratrooper, a By Gods trained killer, and am afraid of making my girlfriend angry. The sad part is I have no idea what I did or didn’t do. Why? She isn’t going to hurt me, she can’t. I think its beacause I care what she thinks about me. Which is stupid, why the fuck should I give a rats ass?
Sometimes I wish she would shoot at me, or charge me with a knife, that I can handle, but this walking on eggshells sucks.
Like Popeye says: I’ve had all I can takes, an I ain’ts taking no more.
While it is not my wish to argue semantics, I will explain my reasoning for that particular choice of words.
The difference as I see it is that a demand requires acceptance and cooperation from the person upon whom the demand is made. i.e. “**You ** will respect me!”
The second phrase is a stating of limits and stands whether the second person agrees or not. i.e. I will not tolerate it.
Regardless of phrasing, the main issue is that more effective communication needs to be established between the 2 people concerned.
I was in a long bad relationship, in which I had many interactions similar to the one described in the OP. Part of this was because she was a raving bitch. Most of it was because I let myself be treated like a doormat. Your narrative sounds to me like you’re letting yourself be treated like a doormat.
It’s obvious you’re trying very hard to be understanding and thoughtful, and that’s fantastic – don’t stop doing that. However, you should also set limits, and allow yourself to get angry when those limits are crossed. A relationship of mutual respect is so much nicer to be in, for both of you.
Bitchy women make me break out in a rash too.
I sympathize with your situation, sometimes the fairer sex isn’t so fair. Unfortunately, you can’t live with, can’t live without them. Life has thrown us poor gentlemen, yet another curveball.
God, shut the fuck up, K-Web! There’s nothing I hate more than guys who want to have a “yeah, women sure do suck!” conversation in response to a discussion about one particular woman. Go feel sorry for yourself somewhere else.
Fucking retard.
All right, what the fuck is your problem? I throw in a bad one-liner and commiserate with a man, who felt a little bitched upon and you jump all over me. Where did I say women suck??? Nowhere dipshit. I simply said that sometimes females are hard to live with. I didn’t say, “Goddamn bitches, all they are good for is producing a little boy that I can turn into a woman hater, cooking, and for providing wet holes for my pleasure.” Frankly, I think you are out of line, and you should only flame people who deserve flaming.
Am I the only one who sees the irony of having a case study of this issue right here in this thread?
The Mermaid
I see your point. It is a minor, but real difference.
I think the difference is minimalized even further when you take into account the fact that you are dealing with loved ones and not strangers. When you enter into a marriage, you have entered into a contract. The parties of any contract now have a right to demand certain things.
A baby demands to be fed, and this is not seen as bad. I think a husband and wife have a right to demand certain things from their spouse.
Respect, love, time, and support immediately jump into my mind.
However, I withdraw my semantics award. I see where you are coming from.
Manda Jo
Would you concede that there may be different dynamics when dealing with members of the opposite sex than when you deal with members of your own sex?
More to the point, you will notice that I was in a hypothetical example about MY friends up there. US guys was appropriate.
I stand by guns on this one. I don’t see men and women as being intrisically better or worse, in fact I don’t think there is just ONE way to deal with all men and ONE way to deal with all women.
That being said…
I do approach women differently than I approach men. I am happy conceding that it is nothing more than a cultural thing and has nothing to do with genetics, but that makes the differences no less real.
A good example is Collounsbury’s crusade against the myth of genetic races. There is no genetic basis to claim that races exist, much less that they dictate behavior. Somehow that truth has not erased race from being a major issue in our society today.
Safe? hehehehe…
I wouldn’t say safe.
But I still do it. You could throw race, age and income level in there as well. When I do make a prediction based on generalizations, I keep them VERY fluid. I do a lot of sales, and I think I am pretty good at reading people. Part of my goal while meeting with a client is to establish rapport with them. I always try to use anything I can glean as a way to size them up, but I never hold onto an impression if the person takes things in a different direction.
Clarification follows:
I never equate a prediction with a judgement. I take each person as I find them.
::thinking hard::
Well, I guess I do…
I don’t think there are roles set in stone, and I realize that each gender has people who would suffocate if they tried to live by my ideals. I don’t think either sex should be discriminated against in the work place, harrassed, or forced to fit into a pre-fit mold.
But that doesn’t preclude me from having an opinion on the roles a mother and father should take in raising a family. There are different social pressures on women and men. I see each gender as needing to be prepared a little differently to face the challenges they are MOST LIKELY to face.
Shoot me, I’m a dinosaur.
::cringes at the memory of the Izzy/Spiritus thread::
ummm…
Sorry, but I don’t think so. At the very least I promise you that I don’t remember it. I’ll even go one further and tell you that I don’t think I have ever debated the relationship between women and men on this board before this thread.
K-Web, the part of your post I was reacting to was primarily the line:
This “us vs. them” attitude irritates me to no end. (“It sure is hard being a man, having to deal with them crazy wimmins!”) AWB posted a problem he’s having interacting with his wife. The problem with his wife is not due to an inherent difference in the biochemistry of men and women. It’s due to their relationship with each other. Her gender is irrelevant.
(Not to mention the fact that he probably doesn’t really want to hear you make jokes about what a bitch his wife is…)
There is nothing that annoys me more than, some tight-ass who tells me the meanings behind what I say , and how others should read it. How about you pick on some of the real macho guys out there?
Did I say anything about biochemistry? You have severely misconstrued my statement. When I address other men(as AWB is), I would address them by the term Gentlemen, not ladies. Therefore it is not supporting an us vs. them attitude, rather it is an example of you reading to far into things, because all I did was address the party question with a correct terminology.
The joke about his wife was in response to his own complaints, not me going about to his wife out of the blue and saying, “Hey, You’se a BITCH”. It was sympathy, commiseration, whatever. It was not an attack on his wife.
You’re an ass.
For awhile there I thought I would actually see a pit thread get booted to Great Debates!!!
…but alas…
I fear this thread has finally been entrenched for all SD eternity in the Pit.
I don’t want thin we really want to have this debate here, with what looks to be a good old fashioned shouting match building up as our backgroun, so I will just address one point:
Generalizations are very useful things in these sort of circumstances, when we meet new people and have only a short time to make an educated guess about the best way to approach them. You have to start somewhere, and this is as good a place as any. However, these generalizations break apart entirely on the individual level–much as social constructs of race break down whenever you are addressing the personality of a particular individual.
Therefore, I think that turning to generalizations to understand someone that one is intimate with is pure foolishness and serves only as a distraction from what you ought to be doing, which is studying the individual themselves for clues about who they are and where they are coming from. Ideas about how men think or how women think have little to do with how one’s husband thinks or how one’s wife thinks.
I get incredibly irrritated by the common conciet of magazines and self help books whereby some man or woman claims to be telling you what your SO is “really” thinking and not telling you. The assumption is that the shared gender leads to a greater understanding of another person than the shared experiences that make up a relationship just seems so twisted to me. Gender is an important part of who a person is, but it is far from the defining feature of a person.
I must have gotten you confused with another poster on gender issues, and fort ha tI apologize. Names are not my strong point. I am glad that we can have this discussion rationally, something that is diffucult to do on gender issues.
Opinions on what genders “should” be like are not really worth discussing–you havn’t said anything so radical that I feel compelled to have this out with you.
Hmm, thought I would make a clarifying comment here. Me being divorced, I will otherwise stay away from this kind of thread.
I shouldnote that comparing sex and race can get us into trouble. Quite clearly there are real genetic differences – a nice little fixed difference : X and Y. No such thing on the level of populations. Of course, that does not automatically mean every culturally defined difference is justifiably genetically. You all know how worked up I get about simplistic equations between behaviour and genes.
AWB
Just go along man… just go along.
Trust me. it’s the smart thing to do.
k… well I have always made it a personal point to read the entire thread and most links before replying.
Till now. By the time I was halfway through it had become too much of an emotional roller coaster and all the good advice had already been given, particularily by Giraffe,
and Freedom,
These are the only things that have had any measure of success for me, and even then only in conjunction with some very serious and honest efforts on behalf of my current and permanent Wife. So if you have the will, and unless your wife is a twisted fuckhead, like my ex, this is not a behaviour that you have to resign yourself to.
Regarding Freedom’s concerns that this thread would degenerate into a GD…
I have a general question on this theme. I can really relate to how AWB is feeling… and perhaps he and a few others, male and female alike also would like to get an answer to this question.
Perhaps a few of the self proclaimed bitches can help us out here. Because we want to know what the fuck you are thinking. We want to know how you can treat us like this and sleep at night? How do you justify your thoughtless cruelty? Are you even aware of the magnitude of the fucking PAIN you cause the very people who are trying to love and trust you? Do you feel contempt for us? Do you treat your children like shit too? Have you ever stopped to think how much deeper your emotional knives would cut into the heart of a child? Does that turn you on? Ever notice how someone in love is emotionaly susceptible. I think you have. I think you feed on it. Is it like a drug to you? Emotional abuse takes way more skill and patience than physical, maybe you consider yourselves artists? Am I getting warm or am I way off? Maybe it’s a power trip thing? Who knows. Maybe some of the self-proclaimed-and-proud-of-it bitches can give us some answers. Inquiring minds want to know.
The adjective I used to describe my ex, ‘twisted fuckhead’ deserves some explanation. I use it primarily because I consider myself to be gently sane, to which she is the exact opposite. Because I don’t think that there are any sane answers to the above questions. Treat people well. It seems pretty fucking simple to me.
Holy fuck.
I just thought of something…
2000 yrs ago, a guy came along saying we should be nice to each other and he got fucking crucified.
shutting up.
My theory is that they are selfish enough that it never even crosses their minds that they need justification.
Take Tuba Diva’s post to me.
There was no need for that, and no apology followed.
I don’t know if they just failed to learn basic respect for their fellow humans when they were growing up, or whether it just wasn’t taught to them.
Either way the result is the same.