This is SO stupid; I'm angry and disappointed

The BBQ Pit
1

Tonight was Day #2 for our Vacation Bible School. The Better Half and I are teaching the First Grade class. As a show of solidarity for our kids’ “team”, we are all wearing hats–the BH and I are wearing Aussie bush hats and I’ve had the kids selecting baseball caps each night out of my extensive collection. I won’t go into details but it ties in with the VBS theme this year, and it gives us something to do for the 20 minutes or so while we’re sitting in the sanctuary every evening, waiting for the opening exercises to begin.

So tonight, towards the end, the VBS director, a very nice lady, and someone whom I like and respect a great deal, took me aside and explained, apologetically but firmly, that not only had one “older member” of the congregation objected to the boys (and the BH presumably) wearing hats in the sanctuary, but also that she herself objected. She didn’t think it seemed respectful.

I was completely flabbergasted, and very angry. I politely agreed that in future we would confine our hat-wearing to the Sunday School wing AFTER the nightly opening exercises, but in private I resolved “fuck this”. Tomorrow night we’ll leave the hats home. Why should I waste my creative energy on people who don’t appreciate it?

It is utterly beyond my powers, both as a parent and as a teacher, to explain to these kids that “some people think it isn’t respectful to God to wear a baseball cap in church”.

“But, teacher, you let us wear them the last two nights, why can’t we wear them tonight?” “Well…” What, Teacher’s an idiot? Teacher’s a closet heathen? Teacher already has a lot of dangerous liberal ideas as far as the rest of the church is concerned, and so has learned to keep her mouth shut and stop volunteering for things and attending meetings, and so has fallen out of the loop, and so is not quite tuned in to what the “older members” might think?

I am fairly conservative when it comes to theology, but pretty liberal when it comes to “social” things, and I am completely taken aback that someone could think that a 6-year-old boy wearing a baseball cap at an evening VBS (which is about as “unchurchy” as you can get, involving skits, singalongs, and about 200 screaming, sweaty kids) is somehow “dissing” God.

Heck, I happen to think that even if the BH showed up on a Sunday morning wearing a fedora, platform clogs, and a pink feather boa, God would understand. Too bad for all the folks who don’t.

And the worst part of it is, this lady’s not an old fuddy-duddy, she’s a thirty-something mother of three, who I always considered a friend, and who is a fast-rising pillar of the church. Doncha just hate it when somebody you thought you knew springs something like this on you?

2

Sorta like when someone leads you to believe they’re male, when they’re not? :wink:

Just kidding. Cheap shot, I know. I’m just P-O’d cuz I didn’t guess it, like so many others said they did. Humphf.

As for the OP, it’s very unsettling when someone behaves out of character. If it’s someone important to you, it’s like the floor drops right out from under you, and the feeling of insecurity can be downright disturbing.

Sounds like your friend is politicking just a little bit. It’s petty, nitpicky, maybe a bit of a power play as well.

How about tomorrow you give all the kids fake tattoos?

3

As to why you should keep going–because it matters to the kids.

As to why some folks believe the hat thing–I suppose it’s rather like people at a parade taking their hats off out of respect for the flag. It is a traditional way to show respect and honor. In some churches, taking your hat off is considered to show proper respect. Interestingly, in others (particularly for women), covering the head is the mode of choice. Hat/no hat–it doesn’t make sense–anymore than taking your hat off for a peculiar piece of cloth. God is, in my opinion, no more present in the sanctuary than anywhere else. “Our country” is not present in the flag either. It’s simply tradition.

As to how I’d explain it to the kids: Well, kids need to know that even adults learn new things. It’s a big step to tell your kids golly, you know, I had NO idea of the tradition here. But just like you are learning something new every day, so am I. Guess what I learned? Here’s a new cool way to show God we care… And depending on the kids, you can even talk about embarrassment and how it’s hard to learn sometimes…

Or, hell, you could just tell them to go felch a sacrificial ram and find another teacher…

4

DDG, I think you are right in coming up with a creative idea for your group of boys and this “fast-rising pillar of the church” is plain wrong and is just playing church politics at its worst. But I also think you are a person who understands that if you openly rebel against someone in the church who is in a position of authority it may be the wrong example to set for the boys. So it comes down to what you think the right choice is. Can you take a stand to defend what you believe to be right without it becoming a negative for the boys?

I would like to tell you to tell this woman to “fuck off” and just follow your heart and do what you want with the boys, but you have to think of the boys and also I don’t want to see you stick your neck out and have it chopped off. I have seen it happen too many times in the church. I don’t want it to happen to you.

5

YES! Swastikas, right in the middle of their cute little foreheads. You owe it to yourself and the community.

And I did say I figured you for a woman. I couldn’t say exactly what tipped me off. It was just the overall feeling, the kinds of things you talked about and the words you chose. And maybe your nearly total lack of homicidal tendencies. I must have missed the posts where you claimed to be male, so I just formed the opinion from what was written. Just my six bits, no biggie either way.

6

Of course God allows baseball caps in church, if only they are of The Angels.

7

I really think this is just a matter of differing generational views. I know I spend all summer practically sleeping in a baseball cap, yet when I am at my grandparents house - the hat comes off at the dinner table. It was the way they were raised and I respect it, even if I do not quite understand it.

As for your specific situation, I think it sounds as if one of the elders went to this “fast rising pillar” woman knowing she was a friend of yours and asked her to ask you about the hats. I would not take it personally.

No, I for one do think God cares whether you wear a hat in church or not, as long as you are there, but our elders feel it is disrespectful . . . and you know what the Bible says about elders. Just let the children know that. Good luck.

  • NM
8

I know I am gaining an unsavory reputation for not letting a bitch be a bitch in the Pit…yet HERE I GO AGAIN!

As annoyed as you are (and I think I would be too, in your shoes, since it messes up a neat idea)… it strikes me as a nice chance to teach the kids a life lesson. Or several:

  • There are some traditions we may not know about, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t important to other people

  • People can disagree yet solve their difference without rancor or bitterness

  • sometimes it doesn’t make sense to dig in your heels when the issue isn’t a big one for you. When it is more important for the other guy, you can accommodate him cheerfully. it’s not giving in, or losing. It’s being gracious.

I don’t think it’s necessary to say you were wrong, or apologize, as far as the kids are concerned. This isn’t a right-or-wrong issue, IMHO. But it is an issue where others’ beliefs can be respected (and, for once, at very little cost!!) I think way, way too often people are celebrated for Never Giving In No Matter How Small The Issue. Arguing The Point Just Because They Can. Kids see way too much of that. Here is a chance to let them see a different way of resolving a difference. They can remove their hats when they enter the sanctuary.

9

[quote}How about tomorrow you give all the kids fake tattoos?[/quote]

Please, PLEASE give the kids fake tattoos! Pretty please? I’m sure that the kids would love them.

10

This is a good opportunity to teach the kids about respect. It was instilled in me to take my hat off at funerals, during the national anthem, and especially in the house of the Lord. You are a teacher to them. When teaching, a lot of times you need to swing your example a bit to the extreme to make sure that even the densest little guys (in this case) might learn something.

I think NothingMan offered a good possibility:

I’ve been put in an awkward situation like this before. Don’t kill the messenger.

Even NM’s initial point was good, as were other similar opinions (I just happened to be on NM’s post then):

Slowly throw out every little gesture of respect with an “oh, what’s it going to hurt…?”, and soon, you’ll be out of ways to show respect. The idea of ‘respect’ itself seems to be falling by the wayside.

If you’re going to go a bit overboard in the respect department for anybody, and you are a Christian, wouldn’t you think that God, in His house, is a deserving recipient of that? I’m sure that you have felt him go overboard for you once or twice. :slight_smile:

I think it’s great that you’re teaching VBS. You’ve probably got so much joy flowing back to you…don’t sweat the petty stuff. And, of course, don’t pet the sweaty stuff. (that was Carlin, wasn’t it?)

If you don’t set a good example now, all of those guys are going to get screen names like “Myndephuquer” when they grow up.

11

Some religions have a custom of headcovering in the house of God:

From Judaism 101:

Of course, your neighborhood synagogue might object to the type of hat, but hats are a sign of respect not disrespect. Maybe you can use this as a way of teaching the different customs of showing respect.

12

I’m reminded of Jesus and His disciples being rebuked by the Pharisees for shelling and eating grain on the Sabbath. I also like his answer, “Know ye not that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath?” I suggest that the VBS director and the older member of the church take time to think about the purpose of church. It’s a place to get folks close to God, not a scary museum of hushed voices and bowed heads. The Pharisees were hooked on externals of religion and forgot about the heart of it,; sounds like your VBS director is a Pharisee.

13

Down South, it is (or used to be) considered bad manners for a man to wear a hat indoors, and even more so in a church. I was always taught that removing my hat was a mark of respect for those around me. This was so ingrained in me that even today I am irritated by men who do not remove their hats (baseball caps) when they are indoors. Maybe the “elder” who objected was as thouroughly indoctrinated as I.

14

No hats in church is a small concession for you to make. The kids won’t be confused very long–first graders have too much going on in their lives to care very deeply or remember very long. And it’s good experience for them to see an adult making changes in her behavior because somebody asked her to.

Middle-aged Catholic reaction: Hats in church? EEEEK!

Quote of my father in re hats in “inappropriate” places, like church and the dinner table: “We’re not Jewish.” He didn’t mean anything bad by it. Just a statement of difference.

15

I couldn’t disagree more. Kids NEED to learn that just 'cuz someones ‘in authority’ dosent give them any special rights or wisdom. That stuff must be earned. I applaud anyone who questions the mindless doctrine of organized religion. IMHO, if you wanna be a Christian, read the Gospels and follow what Jesus teaches. Ignore the homophobic misandry of Paul and the other books that were added to perpetrate the existing power structure in the early church and the “divine” proclomations and teachings of MEN. Also, it seems to me from the tone of the post that this is a Catholic church. IIRC, don’t priests, bishops and the other grand poo-bahs of the church wear big ass goofy hats in church? Where do they get off telling you your caps are no good?

16

There’s custom and then there’s scripture. It’s true that scripture is silent on the issue of hats in church (except Paul, our misogynist friend, who says women’s hair should be covered, and they should be separate, and they should be silent, and a lot of other opinions with which many (read, me) strongly disagree). But it’s also true that in Western, Christian culture it is a traditional sign of respect for men to remove their hats – when meeting a lady (a tip of the hat being a symbolic removal when passing, but a gentleman who actually stopped to converse with a lady would ALWAYS remove his hat); when sitting down to dine; and always, always, always in church. For people who ascribe to this tradition, to fail to remove your hat is to show disrespect. You don’t have to personally agree with it to recognize that many people do ascribe to this cultural, as opposed to religious, tradition. And I don’t think you have to assume that this woman is attempting to undermine you if she alerts you that teaching young men that it is okay to leave their hats on in church is not something she (among others in the congregation) are comfortable with.

I mean, I personally think that it is more proper for men to remove their hats in the situations described above. You would never be allowed to sit down at my father’s table with a baseball cap on, and he’s the one that raised me, so you can count me among those who still believe “hats off while in church” is the way to go. And if I’m no longer in the first blush of youth, I’m no old fogey, either – I’m 31.

There is a large difference between going hungry and taking your hat off of your head. Jesus was no tolerator of disrespect; look at what He did to the money lenders in the Temple.

Oh, yes, by all means take your boss to task, and suggest she needs to give a little more thought to the purpose of church. That’s a good idea.

This way lieth the abyss of flip-flops, bikinis, and “Party Naked” T-Shirts in church. Clothing can be (and often is) interpreted as opinion. If you fail to dress appropriately for a particular event, some people will assume you are denigrating or disrespecting the event. The fact that you aren’t really doesn’t mean that’s not how people will take it. For many people – young and old – removing a hat in the sactuary is a sign of respect and, by extension, failing to remove it is a sign of disrepect. So I say take it off. I doubt the six-year-olds will be scarred for life.

The Pharisees were hooked on externals of religion and forgot about the heart of it,; sounds like your VBS director is a Pharisee.

17

Let’s not forget the Padres.

18

DDG-

In the scheme of things, how important is this? Other than your pride, how would it hurt you to tell the kids that you have decided that the kids should remove their hats in the sanctuary to show respect for Jesus, and wear them afterward for fun, and to show that they are all together?

I am also a Christian. From what I have read, I would say that your beliefs are somewhat similar to mine. I belong to a fairly conservative church, and some of my beliefs would probably not be considered conservative.

I choose my battles, my friend. Is this one worth fighting?

If you decide that it is, then go for it. I would probably reserve my battles for something more important.

Not that I am saying you should, you understand. I am not there, and maybe there is more to this than I know.
But, the kids should come first. And I am sure you agree.

Scotti

19

I like to thank everybody for letting me vent Monday night. The BH was too exhausted to listen (he went straight to bed) and I was sitting up waiting for The Cat Who Walks Alone to get back from her post-VBS teen hang-out-together-at-somebody’s-house-oh-I’ll-get-a-ride-home-with-somebody affair.

On Tuesday I just went with the “scrap the whole hat” thing idea. Only one kid asked, later in the evening, “Hey, what about the hats?” and I just said, “We aren’t doing hats anymore, it got to be too much like work.” I just wasn’t in the mood to try and explain this to them. It isn’t always a “teachable moment”. I also went to the VBS-teacher moms of two kids who had brought their own hats and explained the situation. They split evenly–one agreed that it was stupid, one said, “Well, you know, I wondered about that…”
When the BH did find out what happened, he thought it was hilarious.

The context of the whole VBS opening exercises, I’d like to point out, is about as un-churchy as you can get. Foremost in each evening’s activities is a 10-minute skit which takes place up on the dais, in front of the choir pews, the pastor’s podium being removed to a back hallway for the duration. So, yes, I can understand removing the hats for a worship service. But when you’ve got people in robot costumes break-dancing on rollerblades up in the “holy of holies”, I guess I don’t think it’s fair to “strain at the gnat” of baseball caps on little boys.

Last night I was told, politely, that my 18 kids, being crammed into a pew that’s designed to hold maybe 12, and therefore many of them are standing up, even with two of them on my lap and the BH standing out in the far aisle, are obstructing the view of the people behind them. It was suggested, “Maybe I should ask for a second pew.” Right. And we’ll totally reorganize the entire carefully set up seating arrangements, class by class, for the last night (tonight). I don’t think so.

I was also told by the music leader’s assistant that several of “my kids” had been noisy and disruptive while they were in music. “You might want to do something about that,” she suggested. Um, like what? Spank them?

20

Dear DDG-

I apologize. I should not have been giving you advice when I did not know the whole situation.

And, it sounds to me as though the hat thing was just the tip of the iceberg.

Good luck, I’m saying a prayer that this works out for both you and the kids.

Scotti