It wasn’t taxing either.
I think Rushgeekgirl highlights my questions regarding breastfeeding older children…
It seems to me a case of the mother indluging the child’s vice because the mom doesn’t want to see “baby” grow up. It seems like a lot of this “babying” is done to make the mother feel better about her child growing up - bly slowing down that growty. If there is something that can keep the kid more infantile, the mom grasps onto it as a coping mechanism. Are you doing it because it’s 100% in the best interest of the child? Or is it because it makes you feel good? (Note the language, “beautiful,” “bittersweet,” to describe her feelings). Is encouarging your kid’s dependence on such a childish coping mechanism really good for them? And is letting a 5-year-old suck on your nipple on demand good for you? Does kid start viewing mom as their own personal servant/milkmaid?
Also note the terminology: “weaning herself…” Wait a minute, isn’t it the job of the parent to wean the child? A young child cannot decide for herself when to wean or when to potty train, or when to walk or talk. It’s up to the parents to know certain age milestones and to start teaching certain things at certain times (and yes there is a learning curve, but the kids need the encouragement). Parents run the show, not the kids. The other way around is called “spoling.” Encouraging infantile behavior is enabling inmature coping mechanisms. How is that going to help the child develop the skills to deal with life?
I mean, are you going to send your kid off to preschool in diapers because they don’t feel like potty training? Do you send them to kindergarten not knowing how to read because they “aren’t ready” to learn to read? Are you still going to do Junior’s laundry and cut his meat when he is 35?
ooops, that should say:
“by slowing down that growth.”
It depends. It is legal in Spain for a guy to show his penis in public, or a woman to go stark naked too, I have seen it with my own eyes. So what do you do if it is legal? You can either stare or just avert your eyes. If it is not legal then call the cops.
Breastfeeding is legal (at the very least in the case in question).
Again, what the fuck does that have to do with breastfeeding?
nyctea, apparently you know these kids better than their parents. Heck, you are an expert on all kids, so obviously you know what’s best for them. Please tell me more about how to raise my kid, based on your experience and professional capability.
Do you send them to kindergarten not knowing how to read because they “aren’t ready” to learn to read?
YES!! That’s what kindergarten is for! My daughter LEFT kindregarten not knowing how to read because her teacher did all sorts of great things with the class that 5 year olds should be doing. Then she left first grade reading at a 5th grade level. Did I do her some sort of disservice by sending her to kindergarten not knowing how to read because she wasn’t ready? Did I call the other parents who patronized my “Birkenstock” parenting? No on both counts.
Meanwhile none of my four breastfed children would allow me to cover them. They pulled (painfully) off the nipple and kicked and clawed until their faces were uncovered. They liked to see my face. I rarely breastfed in public, mainly because I was a spaz at it. By the time I ever got the baby latched on you could’ve sketched an accurate picture of my exposed breast. Luckily, two of my children were infants in California where people were more likely to be offended that you fed your baby from a bottle!
Whether the woman on the plane was feeding her infant/toddler for nutrition, or to comfort her in a strange situation it was her business.
People need to remeber that breasts are primarily for feeding children. But they are also good for other purposes. 
Maybe women could carry signs, like cabs, that indicate their status and then you could only be offended at the sight of an “off-duty” breast…
I am entirely glad that you are not the parent of any of my children. I suspect you are not a parent of any children, nor in fact know anything about child development from birth to age five. But please, do go on ranting. It’s getting to be funny, in a point-and-laugh kind of way.
Oh - by the way, I don’t believe in preschool. Or age-segregated institutional “educational” environments. Or one size fits all…anything.
I am not aware of the connection between retarded emotional/social development, lack of maturity, and lack of coping skills related to a later age of weaning. Is this just a personal opinion you’ve developed, or is this based on some accepted theories of development?
I have seen a lot of information suggesting that the “natural” age of weaning is probably a lot later that most of us do it–some point after the age of two (although how far after the age of two is hard to pin down). How can the natural age of weaning be an age that is (as you claim) in conflict with a toddler’s natural, normal development into an independent, coping, well-adjusted child? Why does the AAP support nursing for as long as it is mutually desired, if it risks a child’s normal emotional development?
Actually, they do. Talk to ANY parent on the face of the Earth, and they will all tell you that kids decide when these things happen, not parents. You can push and push and push your children to do these things, but they won’t until they’re ready. The best parents can do is equip their children to know what to do when they decide to do these things.
Unfortunately, this is not true. You can push and push and push and push your kids. If you push them hard enough, they might break. There are a few heartbreaking examples of children who broke, whose parents followed a rigid interpretation of the Ezzo’s philosophies on things such as eating. This link leads to a bunch of testimonials from people whose children suffered when parents tried to control every facet of their life.
Parenting is a balancing act, and the parent must never lose sight of the fact that children are people, with opinions, needs, and dignity just like adults have. That they are children does not make them mindless slaves, and teaching them that they have no control over their own bodies or lives does not seem to me, to be the best way to raise them to self-sufficiency and self-control.
I very specifically try to find situations in which my children can make choices over their own destiny. This has limits: I’m not a short order cook, and I don’t make 4 different entrees for dinner. But if they’d rather eat broccoli than spinach, I’ll make broccoli. And when it came to nursing, I had limits there too: no nursing in public after the age of about 18 months, except in extreme circumstances such as a bad fall, and I got to determine the length of the nursing session, and could limit it to times I was willing to sit down for it. But the child still got to ask, and was not turned down categorically merely because it was my breast. It was my breast. I got to determine when and how it got used. But I was still willing to permit its use, because the child wanted it. And they weaned themselves - past tense - when they were ready, when it was no longer important to them. It’s absurd to suggest that they would not, or that I should have done differently, when my own experience tells me that it worked. Just. Fine.
It seems almost as if some people think the breast OUGHT to be forbidden, specifically BECAUSE the child wants it and has the ability to ask. How does this follow? Why should the child be forbidden a comforting item on principle? What principle does this attempt to teach, exactly?
Let’s face it, it’s quite obvious that people have wildly varying opinions about what is “normal” in terms of breastfeeding, which I’m sure has a lot to do with generational differences & attitudes. My mom, who nursed her own kids, thought it was strange that I nursed for a whole year…she was astounded when I told her that this was pretty much the minimum that any of my friends nursed for, and I was sorry that I couldn’t do it longer. Personally, I nursed in public relatively frequently, but I tried to be discreet, more for my own sake than anyone else’s. I remember once sitting at a restaurant and nursing, but I made sure we sat at a table against the wall, and sat with my back to the room. With a little blankie covering the baby, I’m sure no one knew what we were up to, and it was no big deal.
I personally don’t think there’s anything wrong with nursing a 22-month-old, but I can certainly understand that some people may find it a little off putting…it’s all about what we are socialized to accept. You just can’t expect everyone to have a positive reaction, no matter WHAT the World Health Organization says! I’ll bet part of the problem in this case is that it must be pretty difficult to be discreet while nursing a 2-year-old on an airplane. Even when my child was 6 months old, I brought a bottle for her because it was just too awkward for me to nurse her in that tiny space. As I said, I am all for nursing, but I would find it a little startling to see a child standing up in front of his mom’s airplane seat, breastfeeding. I doubt at 2 years old that this was the child’s only source of food, so in this case, I guess I just don’t understand the DESIRE on the mom’s part to nurse in an enviroment that is so awkward and potentially high-exposure.
But laws about public nudity in Spain aren’t much help in determining the status of customs about public breastfeeding in the US.
Like I said, I’m on the pro-breastfeeding side here: I think that public breastfeeding ought to be universally accepted and that our customs ought to adapt to accomodate that. But I think Sarahfeena is right that it isn’t yet universally accepted as an established custom in American society.
And I think that militant lactivists need to acknowledge that, instead of throwing tantrums about how everybody who doesn’t already approve of public breastfeeding must be some kind of tyrannical repressive prude or pervert.
Sarahfeena, if somebody (a waitress) had noticed that you were breastfeeding, and demanded you stopped, even if she couldn’t see anything, how would you have felt. You could walk out of the restaurant, or stop breastfeeding, but that is not necessarily Ms. Gillette could have done. And again, you are assuming a lot (the kid was standing? Where did you read that?). And as others have said, a)your child is not like any other child, and is probably not like Ms. Gillette’s child, b) maybe the kid was jumpy and nervous, and she was breastfeeding because it calmed the kid down, c) maybe she didn’t have time to pack food, d)maybe she didn’t expect to be that long at the airport, e)maybe other foods don’t sit well with the kid under stressful situations, f) maybe she was doing what she thought was best for her kid, just like you did against your mom’s advice.
It is so easy for us parents to get all high and mighty and start comparing our kids to others and decide that just because we did what was best all other parents have to. Have you heard me criticizing parents that decide **not ****to breastfeed, or to cut it short, despite evidence that it is best for the child? I do hope that every parent knows his kid best.
Please, pretty please, tell me where I said, or suggested what you wrote above. You can think anything you damn please about public breastfeeding, just like I get to think anything I damn well want about all kinds of people. That doesn’t give me the right to go either preaching, or trying to stop them from what they are doing. Is that clear enough? I don’t go telling people my opinion on how they live their lives as long as they keep their nose out of my face.
I was wondering if someone was going to rip me apart for my post, and you made a rather pitiful effort to do so.
I enjoyed reading Chotti’s posts very much, because she made her point in a very well thought out way. In this case we agree to disagree, and I have respect for her for raising her children in the way that she feels is best. She’s also obviously very intelligent, as evidenced by her posts. I wouldn’t personally do the same and I feel uncomfortable when someone breastfeeds an older child. This doesn’t make me an imbecile, just a little more modest than you might be.
Can’t you come up with any better response to my post than that? You’re a waste of time to the rest of us if that’s the most intelligent, well thought out response that you can come up with. Your swearing at a couple of us may add some shock value, but does nothing to help your side of the argument.
It just makes you look like an idiot.
I read your post last night before going to bed, and I put a lot of thought into it. I’ve tried to understand your point-of-view here, really I have, but the only conclusion I can draw from your post is that possibly you don’t have children.
I don’t know how to quote partial posts (and never felt the need to break up a post until now) so I’ll just italicize:
*It seems to me a case of the mother indluging the child’s vice because the mom doesn’t want to see “baby” grow up. It seems like a lot of this “babying” is done to make the mother feel better about her child growing up - bly slowing down that growty. *
Yes, I’m putting rocks on her head just like my dad did.
If there is something that can keep the kid more infantile, the mom grasps onto it as a coping mechanism. Are you doing it because it’s 100% in the best interest of the child? Or is it because it makes you feel good? (Note the language, “beautiful,” “bittersweet,” to describe her feelings).
"Beautiful"was describing an adult poster’s words on a message board. I don’t see how it has anything to do with nursing. Bittersweetness is a feeling most parents know. Like I said before, I have a 17 year old in college. I am happy and proud that she’s moved on to the next level, but yes, I do miss her being my baby. This is a normal behavior for a mother. And yes it’s bittersweet for the same reason for my 23 month old. I’m proud and happy to see her become more independent, but I have no problem admitting I’ll miss having a baby around. Regardless of my feelings, I am 100% sure that letting her nurse at this age and wean naturally are in her best interest. Breastmilk is nutritionally sound, it’s inexpensive and it comes in a handy carrying case. Give me a good reason why I shouldn’t.
Is encouarging your kid’s dependence on such a childish coping mechanism really good for them? And is letting a 5-year-old suck on your nipple on demand good for you? Does kid start viewing mom as their own personal servant/milkmaid?
Yes, it’s “really good” for them. And honey let me tell you, they already view us as their own personal servants, tits or not. How am I less of a servant when I’m baking and chopping and cooking healthy foods for her?
Also note the terminology: “weaning herself…” Wait a minute, isn’t it the job of the parent to wean the child? A young child cannot decide for herself when to wean or when to potty train, or when to walk or talk.
Now see this is where I’m getting the idea you have no children. YES without a doubt children can wean themselves naturally, and will if it’s encouraged gently. I know that Bella will not be nursing much longer. She’s gone from 8 to 2-3 times a day over the past few months. And that’s okay. I’m not discouraging, but I’m not refusing either.
And children do decide when to potty train. Parents, don’t kid yourselves. That child is not going to be fully trained until that child is ready. No pushing, applauding, lollies or stickers are going to change that. My best friend started training her daughter (three musical, light-up potties, Disney princess pull-ups, happy face stickers, and “do you have to go potty? Let’s go potty” "Did you potty? said forty times a day, every day for a year and a half) at two years old, and by three and a half she was trained. I started at three and a half and it took two weeks. This isn’t a “mommy brag”, it’s an example of all the time and energy wasted on potty training when a child isn’t ready.
You might also want to consider the “walking and talking” comments because yes, ultimately children are the ones that decide this as well. How on earth do you “make” a child walk when s/he is incapable? Or if you’re not ready for them to walk, what are you supposed to do, tie them down? Children do it all on their own, in their own time.
My oldest walked at 13 months but started using three word sentences at 11 months. My youngest walked at nine months but has a twelve word (clear words) vocabulary at almost two. She’s been tested for delayed speech and although she’s a bit behind the therapist didn’t see any problems other than talking too fast. She gave us some exercises to work on to get her to slow down, but this isn’t making her talk, it’s only encouraging her to speak more clearly.
- It’s up to the parents to know certain age milestones and to start teaching certain things at certain times (and yes there is a learning curve, but the kids need the encouragement). Parents run the show, not the kids. The other way around is called “spoling.” Encouraging infantile behavior is enabling inmature coping mechanisms. How is that going to help the child develop the skills to deal with life?*
That is not called spoiling. Spoiling is giving in to your child’s every demand. Spoiling is never learning to say no. It’s neglecting to instill discipline. It’s failing to teach them to separate needs, acceptable wants, and unacceptable wants.
Example: Bella thinks she “needs” to watch television all day, but that’s unacceptable. She is allowed thirty minutes and a choice of shows while I cook dinner. She can throw ten kinds of fits but she’s not going to get more television. It’s taking time, but she’s learning this. Now she mostly sulks. 
Nursing is not encouraging infantile behavior because nursing is not infantile behavior. You only believe it’s infantile behavior because that’s what you’ve been taught.
You’re right about observing the milestones, and that’s my point in all this. When SHE is ready SHE will stop nursing. She’s getting there all on her own. I’m not encouraging, but not rejecting as I’ve said. That’s MY part of the job.
I mean, are you going to send your kid off to preschool in diapers because they don’t feel like potty training? Do you send them to kindergarten not knowing how to read because they “aren’t ready” to learn to read? Are you still going to do Junior’s laundry and cut his meat when he is 35
Slipping right on down that slope, ain’tcha?
Is there a correlation between extended nursing and unusually late potty-training or did you just pull that one out of your ass?
And no, I won’t send her to pre-school in diapers. I know this’ll get ya, but I’m probably going to homeschool (again). My oldest seems to know how to do her own laundry and cut her own meat so I guess I did a good job.
I’m sorry if I’ve done a messy hack-job on this post. Don’t have time for preview…SO is calling.
Thank you for the scariest thought of the last month. Nyctea scandiaca as a mother??? Brrrrrrr! Just the thought gives me the creeping heebie jeebies. Jesus, I wouldn’t wish that on RTFirefly.
IMO, feelings are irrelevant here, actually. I would probably be a little aggravated if I was inconvenienced by someone who had an objection to me feeding my baby in public. Likewise, that person is aggravated by seeing me do it. Whose feelings are more important? Well, where I live, I believe the law would be on my side. But, frankly, that doesn’t really help in the moment, for two reasons: One, there is usually not a person of authority, such as a police officer, standing by to enforce my right to breastfeed. Two, even the law can’t change people’s attitudes. I believe that I DO have a right to breastfeed in public. I also believe that it is courteous to consider other peoples’ feelings on the matter, and attempt to be as discreet as possible, to try to avoid embarrassment for everyone.
I was indulging in a little hyperbole when I said that about standing. It was supposed to illustrate that it is probably pretty difficult to be discreet when feeding a rather large toddler in a tight space such as an airplane seat.
As far as walking out of the restaurant, you are right…in the situation I described, I could have done that. The point is that getting the child fed is the MOST important thing. It is very, very smart to have a contingency plan, in case any weird situations come up. When my child was so little that her only food was breast milk, I made sure I was always close enough to a private place (even if it was just my car), to be able to take care of it if I had to. As she got older, and could eat other things, I made sure I had some of those other things on hand, so I could give her that if need be.
The reason I gave an example from my life is because this is my experience, not because I think everyone needs to do everything exactly the way I do it. In case you missed it in my previous post, like Kimstu, I FULLY SUPPORT breastfeeding, and never said otherwise. I just think practicality is a little more important than anything else. When you go on a trip, you have to plan for contingencies. It is smart to realize that there are people who are not comfortable with breastfeeding, and that the likelihood that there will be discomfort increases with the age of the child. It is smart to realize that there are delays, and you may be in the airport for a long time, and that eventually a 2-year-old will probably be hungry for some solid food, anyway, so it is a good idea to have some on hand.
I guess my own bottom line is this: It would be very, very nice if everyone agreed with us that nursing is a natural, healthy, and wonderful thing. But they don’t. You are going to run into people who feel very differently about it. You can get all bent out of shape about these differences of opinion, or you can figure out how to work around it, for your own sake.
The breastfeeding issues that crop up in the news periodically are about the silliest things I can think of. I know that people get outraged and actually have the nerve to say something to the mother, but I honestly don’t understand why these moms don’t just ignore the person. How often do the uptight ninny guardians actually call the cops, and how often does the cop wrench the child out of it’s mother’s arms and run her in? An icy stare and temporary deafness would go so much farther. I mean, can you imagine some woman flapping her arms and carrying on about it and no one responding? It would shut them up in a hurry.
Sure, back-up plans should be in place for general purposes, but just once I’d like to see the busybody ignored. Let 'em call the cops. Maybe that’ll shut 'em up.
Well, according to the article linked in the OP, the family was actually ejected from the airplane. IMO, this is completely wrong. But, personally, I would rather cover up or whip out a sippy cup filled with regular milk or expressed breast milk than get thrown off a plane. Also, according to the article, the disagreement boiled down to this: The flight attendant asked the mother to cover the baby with a blanket, rather than just trying to hide the activity with her shirt. The mother refused, saying “I’m not doing anything wrong.” THIS is where the “lactivism” comes in. She may think it’s completely unreasonable to have been asked to cover up. But if she had just done it, she would have continued on her flight. Sounds to me like her refusal to cover up was in order to make a point about nursing.
Principles are great, but they won’t always get you where you want to go (literally). I would have covered up. In fact, if I had to (which she didn’t), I probably would have stopped nursing, and raised holy hell later. But that’s just me. Others may feel it’s worth standing up for, and that’s fine, too.
Well, I can understand not wanting to make a scene, but do you really think they’d have physically removed her from the plane? What if the baby didn’t like being under a blanket. What if the woman noticed some chickie across the aisle who was flashing more boob than she was. I suppose you’d have to back down if you really wanted to get where you were going, but I’d be more inclined to ignore the woman and wait for the press coverage when they grab the nursing mother and remove her from the plane.
Other posters made similar remarks like “uptight people don’t want their impressionable children to see breasts, or consider the sight of a breast to be in any way normal - so that they can grow up to be uptight people just like their parents” (Mangetout in post#21); “The uptight should just get it into their heads that for tens of thousands of years, the female mammary was (and probably still is) the best food delivery system” (ExTank in post#24); “It’s a natural biological perrogative and objecting to it out of some Victorian notion of propriety is absurd to an extreme” (Stranger in post#28); etc.
I think my remark about militant lactivists trying to label everybody who doesn’t already agree with them about public breastfeeding as some kind of repressive prude or pervert, although somewhat exaggerated for rhetorical effect, was basically accurate.
The only thing “wrong” with most people who object to public breastfeeding is simply that they’re still operating by an etiquette convention (which was almost universally accepted in American society until perhaps the past 10–15 years, btw) that says breastfeeding in public is not appropriate. Like I said, I’m all for changing that convention to make public breastfeeding universally acceptable, and I’m glad it’s already changed quite a bit.
But it’s stupid to act all flabbergasted that there are still many people who adhere to the older convention in which breastfeeding in public is not accepted. And it’s kind of assholish to pretend that it must be just some uptight neurotic problem of their own that makes those people uncomfortable with public breastfeeding. What we’re seeing here is the evolution of social customs, and some people just haven’t evolved in that direction yet as far as you have.