I’ve asked people in wheelchairs about it before, and along with obviously pregnant women it’s been a 100% “Happy to talk about it” and zero instances of “Fuck off and mind your own business” or variants thereof.
Even I know saying to someone “So… how did you end up in a wheelchair?” is terribly rude. But asking “What material is your wheelchair made of?” has led to some really interesting and enlightening conversations.
So yeah, from my perspective it’s definitely the SDMB having a weird filter again.
Good. And I’ve driven though stop signs without stopping before, and haven’t hit anybody or been penalized by cops. That doesn’t mean that what I did wasn’t against the recognized rules of the road, or that anybody who tells me I’m supposed to stop at stop signs is “seeing things through an unusual filter”.
Just because we often don’t get into any trouble for breaking the rules doesn’t mean that the rules don’t exist.
[QUOTE=Martini Enfield]
Even I know saying to someone “So… how did you end up in a wheelchair?” is terribly rude.
[/quote]
Right, because it’s a personal question. Just like asking a stranger who appears to be pregnant about their due date or baby’s gender is a personal question. Etiquette says, don’t do it.
[QUOTE=Martini Enfield]
But asking “What material is your wheelchair made of?” has led to some really interesting and enlightening conversations.
[/quote]
Because it’s an impersonal question that has nothing to do with revealing their personal information to a stranger.
Similarly, if you asked an apparently pregnant stranger at a party who was drinking a specialty nonalcoholic cocktail “So, is that Rhubarb Vanilla Splash a good drink?”, that also is an impersonal question that has nothing to do with revealing their personal information to a stranger.
Saying “Let’s talk about some impersonal subject that happens to exist as a consequence of your personal matters” is different from saying “Let’s talk about some details of your personal matters”. So your attempted analogy doesn’t in fact support the point you thought you were making.
[QUOTE=Martini Enfield]
So yeah, from my perspective it’s definitely the SDMB having a weird filter again.
[/QUOTE]
Given the demonstrated logical and informational failures in your perspective, it’s not really surprising that a normal understanding of recognized etiquette looks “weird” to you.
This comment does not make sense to me, as you appear to be arguing the opposite. You claim that trans status is usually obvious, so there’s no reason not to talk about it. But that’s the opposite of what Guin said, that (outside a sexual relationship)it’s none of your business. If it’s none of your business, then it’s rude to talk about.
I will also point out that you are displaying cognitive bias. If someone passes, then you will not know they are trans. That’s what it means to pass. You inherently cannot know if most trans people are obviously trans.
We have actual trans people on this board. I’ve talked to several more elsewhere. I can assure you that it is considered rude to out anyone, even if you think it’s “obvious.” They’re doing their best to appear like a man/woman, and you’ve just told them they failed. That they will always be different.
Same if you out someone who is “obviously” gay. To the point that people have said it’s wrong to even out some homophobic lawmaker who is actively causing harm to the LGBT community. It’s wrong to out the hypocrite, according to these people. These people who are gay, so I think they fucking know what is and is not offensive to them.
And, if you don’t believe me, I invite you to pull up Google. Don’t go by your friends. Of course they will more likely think like you. But just google outing trans people and find out how few people say it’s okay. Look up deadnaming. And when you find people who say it’s okay, observe how they say tons of transphobic shit.
This isn’t the only discussion forum on the internet I frequent. And I’ve also been known to go outside and talk to other people from time to time too.
*“You should never say anything to a woman that even remotely suggests you think she’s pregnant unless you can see an actual baby emerging from her at that moment.” - Dave Barry
“I’d rather see a pregnant woman standing on the bus than a fat girl sitting down crying.” - Jimmy Carr*
I’m baffled that some people have never encountered or considered the social faux pas of erroneously assuming a woman is pregnant. For these people I offer the following links:
Well, she didn’t ask how much social interaction you get; the question was about how frequently you discuss etiquette. I suspect “hey, is it okay to out trans people when I think it’s obvious?” doesn’t frequently come up when you leave the house for a walk.
I’m aware that you put your fingers in your ears and deny basic facts; your denying the definitions and examples that I gave is right in line with 1984’s “We have always been at war with Eastasia”. The fact that you don’t want to acknowledge the information provided in my cite is hardly new or interesting, I didn’t expect that you would actually admit that you’re wrong, people who insist on ignoring the actual history of a word’s use usually don’t. It’s certainly not grounds for a debate, since a debate where I provide cites and you just say ‘nuh-uh’ isn’t useful for anyone. It does highlight that many ‘conservatives’ don’t actually want to stick to the old way of doing things, and instead just want to do it their way and call it traditional while sticking their head in the sand at any conradictory information.
I am not sure that’s a good question to ask in the Pit…
I was known by a nickname through much of school. I don’t like the nickname and started using my given name in high school. Everyone calls me by my given name now. I’m not sure how that is different to using someone’s current given (even if gender-different) name?
It was Weird Dave, Satan, and many other “popular and cool” people here who found out about Eve’s past, and who made it all a giant joke at the Dopefest. I think Weird Dave was the actual instigator. I don’t think any posters were banned over Eve’s information specifically, they were just banned by the coincidence that people who mock or deride us tend to be trolls, general bigots, flaming assholes, or anti-social oppositional-defiant losers who can’t really function in community environments unless they can play the bully.
As far as myself, I’ve never been to a Dopefest. Before it was because I didn’t want to go through the abuse Eve did. Now it’s only because I don’t know 90% of the people who are at them, because I don’t participate in the community as much. I’d certainly go to a KC-area one.
I’ve met several individual Dopers. Nowadays I reach out sometimes to folks when I travel to their cities for work; almost no one actually wants to meet me, however. There’s always some excuse, sometimes as ridiculous as “Tuesday’s ‘taco night’ and I don’t want to miss that.” (that’s actually a direct quote). No prizes for guessing what the real reason is.
I think this is the problem. If you do not actually meet people face to face on a daily basis you run the risk of losing your social skills, or never achieve them. Social skills are not certain contracts you sign, but extremely complex patterns of behaviour, if you will, that most people get a feel for by being with other people. If you only interact with people through screens, you lose that “feel” and start to intellectualize human relationships. Of course, we can still (and should) argue what’s right and wrong in human interaction, but I honestly think that if lose the face to face, daily interactions with humans, strangers and friends, and replace it with internet communiction, you run the risk of losing a little bit of your humanity. And then it is only possible to understand humans rationally and intellectually, as if one were an alien looking at earth and its inhabitants from afar, trying to understand patterns of behaviour as if it was C#.
I can’t engage directly on this Board with people who are closet transphobes with all sorts of pretzel logic about how it’s “Orwellian” to be polite, and who make up strawmen to back up their social delusions. I’m too busy in the real world, as a real transgender person, working with other real transgender persons every single day on our real problems and real challenges. You know, discrimination-driven unemployment and underemployment, denial of access to health care, emotional and physical abuse, abuse from and loss of family and friends, routine and almost casual daily bullying, criminal victimization, rape, and suicide. Trying desperately to stop the pain and anguish, like bailing out a swimming pool with a teacup.
Anyone who wants to act like Cartman (“I do what I want!”) and out us against our wishes whenever you please - you’re exactly the people that make the lives of my people so fucking miserable on a daily basis.
Since almost all bullies on here are e-tigers, I comfort myself by the realization I made more than a decade ago: that most of you only talk a tough game online, and in real life you’d just sit there fuming silently that one of us “freaks” is allowed to walk around in public in Trump’s World Order.
I think the question is why is it so important not to mention that someone is trans. If nobody cares if they’re trans, then mentioning it is not a big deal. But apparently it is a huge social faux pas, comparable to someone having their leg bitten off by a shark.
Why it is so much worse than talking about any other personal details of your friends, I couldn’t say. But then again, I don’t know any transsexuals IRL.
Say you had a friend named Joe. And you knew that Joe had some personal issue. Would you talk about that personal issue of Joe’s with other people who were NOT Joe?
I’m pretty sure this is addressed in detail above, with the short answer being: some people do care that other people are trans, and consider it a “big deal”. And by “care” I mean “react in a negative manner”, which could range from being generally unpleasant to various forms of discrimination to firing the trans person (or otherwise hounding them out of a job) to, in extreme circumstances, physical violence. That’s the most material reason for caring about how the information is spread and to whom.
The general point about not casually dropping other people’s bidness into one’s conversations also applies, to whatever degree appropriate, but the occurrence of gossip is less important than the potential fallout of it.
