"Thou shall not kill"... "eh, murder", What?

[Kinthalis]

Everytime someone quotes that particular commandment someone inevitably comes in and states that in fact a more accurate translation is “Thou shall not murder”.

First, is this actually true. If so, can you please prove it?

I have heard bible scholars say that the word is kill plain and simple, but have also heard (from jewish scholars mostly) that the word is indeed ‘murder’, and that it implies a different concept than just ‘kill’.

As for my 2nd question:

2. If it is true that the commandment says “thou shall not murder”, then does the bible provide us with a definition of both “kill” and “murder”. Are the definitions the same as they are today? Does the bible portray a difference between the two words? Or does it use it interchangeably?

I also like to point out to anyone who brings this up what moses decides to do to his people after receving this commandment, mainly inciting those who follow him to KILL all those who do not belive in what he has to say. This includes men, woman and children.

Now if I went around with my buddies killing anyone who didn’t belive in my particular god what would you call me? I’d say you’d call em a murderer and rightfully so.

Can anyone shed some light ont his for me?

[Captain_Amazing]

The word is “ratsah”, which means “to murder”…there’s another word, “harag”, which means to kill something.

At other points in the Torah, it sets up crimes that demand the death penalty, and also describes how to sacrifice animals. If the command were just “dont kill”, that would contradict the above rules on animal sacrifice and capital punishment.

Murder is the willful killing of a person without just cause…it doesn’t include killing in passion, or killing under legitimate orders of the state.

[Captain_Amazing]

*Originally posted by Kinthalis *
**Now if I went around with my buddies killing anyone who didn’t belive in my particular god what would you call me? I’d say you’d call em a murderer and rightfully so. **

If you did it, yes, you’d be a murderer (I assume)…but two differences:

1. Not worshiping your particular god isn’t a crime in your country. (I assume)

2. You don’t have governmental authority to order people put to death. (I assume)

[photopat]

Well, here is one site that discusses the distinction. I hope it helps.

[photopat]

Dammit Cap, you beat me to it.

[PatriotX]

The diff twixt kill and murder is a matter of legality.
All murder involves killing. Not all killing is murder.

What laws are invoked can vary. God’s law, Natural Law, federal or state law. Not all acts of murder are proscribed under all laws equally.

[Kinthalis]

So the bible does indeed make this specific distinction betweent he two concepts.

It basically says:

Murder is the taking of life outside the law, while killing is the taking of life within the law.

Now I’m guessing the bible would say that God’s law is above that of the state, or no?

If not, then as an example, the bible would condone Saddam’s killing of his subjects since he was acting in accordance to (his) laws?

If yes, then the bible would place certain limits on what IT considers murder and what it considers killing… what are those limits?

(I think this is starting to turn into a GQ OP )

[toadspittle]

Ahem. Read on in that link. It’s not so clear, even to Jewish scholars:

The fact remains, however, that even the Jewish translators were not unanimous in maintaining a consistent distinctions between the various Hebrew roots.

Don Isaac Abravanel and others noted that ratsah is employed in Numbers 35:27-30 both when dealing with an authorized case of blood vengeance, and with capital punishment–neither of which falls under the legal category of murder.

In fact, some distinguished Jewish philosophers believed that “thou shalt not kill” is a perfectly accurate rendering of the sixth commandment. Maimonides, for example, wrote that all cases of killing human beings involve violations of the command, even if the violation happens to be overridden by other mitigating factors. It has been suggested that this tradition underlies the virtual elimination of capital punishment in Rabbinic law.

Viewed from this perspective, we may appreciate that the translation “thou shalt not kill” was not the result of simple ignorance on the side of Jerome or the King James English translators. Rather, it reflects their legitimate determination to reflect accurately the broader range of meanings of the Hebrew root.

As usual, careful study teaches us that what initially appeared ridiculously obvious is really much more complex than it seemed at first glance. We should be very cautious before passing hasty judgement on apparent bloopers.