Thoughts from watching "Angel" - Season Five (Fred and Wes-related)

Cafe Society
1

There will be spoilers in this, so please don’t come in if you’re still planning to watch it.
Mouseover space-

Okay, when Wes thinks the robot is his dad, and his dad is threatening Fred with a gun, he shoots his “father” with no hesitation - emties the gun into him, in fact. It turns out that his “father” is a very good replica, but Wes didn’t know that at the time (even according to himself). He honestly thought he was killing his own father for threatening Fred. Fred discusses this with Wes later, and Wes makes it clear that no, he didn’t think it was a robot, and no, he wouldn’t necessarily have done the same for any of the gang - it was FRED that was being threatened, and that was why he shot his “father.”

So here we are, a couple of episodes later, and it appears that Wes emptying a gun into what he thought was his father was a big turn-on for Fred, because she’s finally returning his long-unrequited love. My question to the masses is, isn’t a guy killing his father for you kind of creepy, not really romantic?

And a sort-of-related question, do you think Fred’s kind of a bitch for the way she treated Wes all along, with the basically knowing how he felt and dating other guys in front of him and stuff?

2

Wesley kidnapped Angel’s son soon after Fred appeared on the scene and wasn’t fully brought back into the group until late in season four. At this point, Fred had already been dating Gunn.

After Gunn and Fred broke up for good it really wasn’t that many episodes until Wes and Fred got together. Then Fred had to go and get killed by Illyria.

3

Wether or not killing your dad counts as “creepy” rather depends on who your dad is, doesn’t it? On my personal Creep-o-meter, patricide gets seriously downgraded when the patri in question is holding a gun to my head.

As for Fred being a bitch… how do you think she should have acted? Should she not have gotten involved with Gunn at all? Hooked up with him, but kept it a secret? Quit working for Angel as soon as she and Gunn got together? None of those solutions seem to be particularly reasonable to me. She wasn’t into Wes, which sucks for him, but it’s not fair to make her arrange her personal life around his heartbreak.

4

Maybe Fred just has a thing for men who will kill for her. After all, she hooked up with Gunn seriously after he offed the guy who sent her to Pylea. Maybe her stay amongst the savages there affected her a little bit. Ya think?

5

I thought that was what broke them up.

6

You are correct. They bonded during “Waiting In The Wings,” and got futzed during “Supersymmetry,” then broke up for good during “Apocalypse, Nowish.” My bad.

In light of the facts, what then? She was just grateful for Wes saving her life? Damn near all of the Fang Gang saved her life at one time or another. How come she didn’t get the hots for Angel? Or Lorne? Or Cordy, for that matter?

7

She did, didn’t she? Before Gunn, even.

8

In Pylea, sure. He was someone from home, demon or no. But post-return…

9

And although it was a replica, Wes’s reactions and lamenting afterward made it quite clear that it was a SPOT ON replica. That means Wes could actually see his own dad holding a gun to the head of the woman he loves, and can see himself killing him for it. It was quite clear to Fred that this was the case, so while not necessarily romantic, it certainly shows he loves her if he’s willing to do that to himself.

10

Fred did have the hots for Angel (See: Carpe Noctem). And imo, the events of Billy kind of put a kink in things, especially since Fred was still so much in her shell at the time. It seemed to take Wes all that time between then and Waiting In The Wings to get over himself and make a move. Gunn just got there first, it was more about fate than Fred choosing one over the other. IMHO, being with Gunn drew her out, and brought her to a place where she could be with Wes.

11

On a side note, the robotic ninjas has to be the dropped storyline that I wish Joss and company could have resolved in season six.

12

I don’t think it was just that he saved her life. Like I said earlier, Wes’s dad deserved killing, but most people would likely have given him a pass if he’d been unable to gun down his own father. And, as Wes said, he wouldn’t have been able to do it if it had been anyone else in danger. But Fred was so important to him that he’d be willing to do anything to save her, while at the same time being so respectful of her feelings towards him that he refused to push his suit after she’d made it clear that she wasn’t interested in him romantically. Which makes him teh hotness.

13

I think his dad was treading on thin ice before he grabbed Fred. His “father” says he will kill Wesley for the soul-stealing-stick and Wesley’s rather calm response was “I know. You raised me.” I think he was fully prepared for one of them to die in that exchange, and his “father” made the decision for him when he grabbed Fred.

Now, the relationship between Fred and Wes is complicated. And I have a lot of thoughts about it (because Wesley is my obsession. Literally).

First, she didn’t “know” how Wesley felt about her all along. Wesley was a complete chump when it came to her. At the beginning of Billy, he invited her over to his house for dinner, and then chickened out and invited Cordelia, Gunn, and Angel. Wesley never told her he liked her. He never indicated he wanted to date her. He never asked her out on a date. He did treat her like they were just good friends. Contrast that to how Gunn treated her. He said things like “Oh man, you know you’re beautiful.” He took her out to breakfast every morning because she liked pancakes. He complimented her and teased her and flirted with her. Why would she assume that Wesley is interested when Gunn is actively showing her his interest?

Then Wesley “betrays” Angel and the group and he is outcast. Fred and Gunn take their lead from Angel, and Angel makes it very clear that he will kill Wesley if he sees him again. Furthermore, Wesley doesn’t want anything to do with them. Did he just take Angel’s threat to heart or does he really not care anymore? It doesn’t matter. He’s on the outside. Gunn and Fred are left alone with Connor all summer, and Wesley is apparently watching them and monitoring Connor (since he knows what Connor did to Angel), but the actual threat to Wesley is removed. He could have contacted them any time. He didn’t. Of course, at that point, Gunn didn’t trust him because unlike Fred, he knew Wesley had a thing for Fred.

So, so far, we all know of his feelings for Fred, but Fred has no reason to believe he loves her. Then he starts sleeping with Lilah! And, worse than that, he implies very strongly that he was in love with Lilah.

In S4, during the whole Angelus panic, Wesley kisses Fred and makes it clear that he’s “not sorry” she and Gunn broke up. Fred seems intrigued by his response, and finally clued in. But the fact that he had lots of hot dirty wrong hot sex with Lilah is a major turn off. And not long after that revelation is made, Jasmine is born and they’re all put under a spell. This is not conducive to falling in love. Even if were, the timing is all wrong. You can’t hook up with your ex’s former best friend. And as hot as Wesley was in S4 (mmmmmmm) he did have lots of hot dirty wrong hot sex with the now-dead enemy.

And then everything is reset! Suddenly, the relationship between Fred and Wes is like it was around S3. She still thinks of him as a friend. He’s still got deep feelings for her. And Wesley’s insecurity is such that he will never, ever believe she (or anybody else for that matter) could love him. By S5 we know for 2 years that he loves her, and Fred is only coming to that conclusion because she doesn’t remember when he clued her in to his feelings before.

So considering the fact they were moving from “just good friends” to something more, I don’t think she was bitchy to him, or mean to him, or anything else. I think her actions were fully justified.

She did have a thing for Angel for a little while after Pylea, but I don’t think she was interested in Angel so much as the ideal. And she stated plainly that the reason she loved Gunn was because he couldn’t do something as horrible as revenge. The reason their relationship fell apart after that was because they both had to change how they viewed each other.

14

If I recall correctly, things weren’t exactly “reset” at the end of season 4. It’s never exactly spelled out, but I’m pretty sure the spell Angel has cast as part of the Wolfram and Hart deal just erases memories related to Conner from everyone’s minds. The team still remembers most of what happened in season 4, but everything related to Conner is whitewashed over. Undoubtedly, if anyone sat down and really thought about it, they’d probably figure out that something is amiss, but no one ever bothers to. So, it’s not a complete reset of the Wes/Fred/Gunn relationship.

15

It’s not a complete reset, no. We know that obviously Fred and Gunn still broke up and for the same reason. We also know that Wes still had a relationship with Lilah (though we don’t know why Wesley believes he started sleeping with the enemy). But the major bad feelings between the group was gone. Notice how Gunn and Wesley no longer squared off at each other every time they were in the same room. They weren’t the bestest of friend again (and honestly, it still kills me that that friendship was lost) but the actual tension was gone. Also, Wesley behaved different in the group in general because that guilt was gone. Due to the exchange they had in Life of the Party when they were both “drunk” it’s pretty obvious that his initial confession to her “never happened.” Also, in that scene, Fred was pretty much treating him like her best girlfriend. If they remembered the events of S4 clearly (the kiss, the “What we did was wrong” exchange, the “I should be sorry but I’m not” exchange, the “it’s not always about holding hands” exchange, and Gunn flat-out telling her that Wesley had feelings for her) then the friendly relationship they had at the beginning of S5 wouldn’t have been possible at all.

16

I think Fred knew very early on that Wes was crushing on her - like about the second or third episode that she was in. I’d have to go back and re-watch it, but there was a strong hint that she was aware. I’ll have to re-think “the bitch about dating everyone else in front of Wes” thing, but I still think Wes killing what he thought was his father because of her was “teh psychopathness.” I see the point about him doing anything for her but still respecting her feelings, though. Of course, these are not people living normal lives in normal situations - it’s not too much of a stretch to think that Fred did indeed find it a big turn-on, considering what they do for a living and all the drama they live with every day.

17

It is not possible to just remove Connor from Season 4 and still have the story make sense. He is much too pivotal to everything that happened, especially once Jasmine comes onto the scene.

Also, Cyvus Vail, the warlock who did the spell, proudly describes one of the false memories he created in Connor. So it’s established that false memories were created as a part of the spell. Illyria, after exposure to the broken Orlon Window, specifically mentions two sets of memories and discusses it with Wes at the end of “Origin.” Wes tells her to accept the false memories because they were created for a reason.

What was missing from their collective memory is explicitly spelled out in “Origin” - everything Wes sees after smashing the Orlon window, starting with “The Father Will Kill The Son” and ending with broken-down Connor in “Home”. What we don’t see is what it was replaced with although Fred does at some point mention playing lots of Jenga.

18

It wouldn’t be the “second or third episode” she was in, because those were still Pylea episodes. She was still hiding in her room and eating tacos they sent up to her in the first episode of S3 (when Angel returned from his vacation in Tibet). In That Vision Thing, which was the 2nd ep of S3, she was still doing a pretty good job of hiding in her room and under tables. There also wasn’t any hint of her cluing in during That Ol’ Gang of Mine (though there was a very hot scene where Wesley told Gunn not to lie to him again or he’d fire his ass. I love it when Wesley takes charge). In fact, she still was crushing pretty hard on Angel until the the fourth episode of S3, which would have been her sixth episode. And she was still hiding in her room and not really interacting too much with the group. In one episode, and I can’t remember which one, she implies she thinks of Wesley as a brother.

The first time Wesley’s crush is explictly referred to is at the beginning of Billy, when Cordelia caught on, but assured him that nobody else noticed. In Waiting in the Wings, there’s an exchange where Cordelia tells Fred that Wes is perfect for her—and Fred automatically assumed Cordy was referring to Gunn.

Wesley did start crying at the end of Billy and she heard him and stopped in the hallway. I think his reaction to what happened, especially when he apologized, could hint that he had strong feelings for her, but I don’t think she really clued in. Wesley is a good guy. If he had brutally attacked Cordelia, I’m pretty sure he would have hid in his apartment and cried then, too.

ETA: Also, Wes killing his dad wasn’t psychopath move. It was emblematic of what Wesley’s “problem” is, and Angel spelled it out explicitly. He’s the guy who makes the hard decisions, regardless of the cost to himself. Wesley is always guided by what he believes is the right thing, even when he’s insane with grief, like after Fred died. That might be crazy, but it doesn’t make him a “psychopath.”

But I might be biased. Wesley could kill my dad, and I’d still think he’s the best thing since sliced bread.

19

pepperlandgirl, your encylopaedic knowledge of *Angel * turns me on. :wink:

I respectfully disagree about Wes, though. Not that he’s the bomb, because he is. Far and away the most fascinating character study in the Whedonverse. But while technically, he’s a “Good Guy”, he’s not a good guy. He’s not a *bad * guy, but he’s a crazy, self-loathing, secretive, insecure, passive-aggressive, profoundly damaged guy. He’s a damned mess, and while we know how he got that way, and we sympathize, that doesn’t make it okay.

Sure, his intentions are good. He always does what he believes to be the right thing. But Wes’s tragic flaw is that he seems to believe that the *right * thing is necessarily the *hardest * thing, and by constantly acting on that assumption, he tends to fuck everything up to a faretheewell. In a world where “all that matters is what we do”, Wes is, at best, a problematic guy to have around.

That said, Fred was a simp. I prefered him with Lilah. :stuck_out_tongue:

20

I like him because he’s crazy, self-loathing, secretive, and a damned mess…but I think at his core he is fundamentally good. Fred calls him a “good man” in Billy, and while Wesley isn’t convinced that’s true, I think she is convinced it’s true, and I think she’s right.

Wesley made two big mistakes in his lifetime. Two big mistakes that he never stopped paying for: trying to take Faith back to London and stealing Connor. But he did both of those things out of pure devotion to the Counsel and to Angel, respectively. I don’t know if you could argue he was right about Faith. The implication was that they would do something horrible to her, but he did not make the same mistake twice. And when he had the chance to redeem both himself and Faith in season 4, he took it. (And was Wesley and Faith running around Los Angeles together the hottest thing ever? Yes. I think so. sigh).

When it came to Angel and Connor, technically none of his “tragic” flaws led to his downfall. Was he secretive? Yes, but I think he had pretty good reasons. And if Fred and Gunn hadn’t been so wrapped up in each other, they might have realized it themselves. Plus, he wasn’t just interpreting a pretty horrifying prophesy. He was trying to keep Holtz from killing his only real family in the world. He should have known that Holtz would double-cross him, but he was busy planning the kidnapping of his best friend’s son. And let’s face it, Wesley was right. Angel did “kill” Connor. Wesley worked his ass off to confirm the prophesy was true and all points of reference held up. What choices did he have? Even if he told Angel the truth, you can’t thwart prophesy. Buffy did still die, after all. Prophesies do happen in the Jossverse–and it did happen.

Up until Angel tried to kill him, I don’t think Wesley could be classified as crazy. He was smart, and capable, and a good leader, and a good friend. He picked up the mantle Angel discarded in season 2, again because it was the right thing to do. He ran Angel Investigations because it was the right thing to do. He got all wonderfully geeky with Angel about Connor (best!Gay!Dads!Ever!). He had his personal demons (but so would you if your father was Roger Wyndam-Pryce…) but he was still perfectly sane. It was only after everything went horribly, horrible wrong and he lost his 1)faith in himself (and his books) 2) his best friend 3)the baby 4)his family and 5) his purpose for existing that he actually lost his mind. Up until then, his demons (including the self-loathing) were manageable…

And wow, I’m really going on and on, aren’t I? I think about Wesley a lot. i haven’t even had the chance to watch an episode of Angel since last spring, but my mind usually drifts to Wes when I have a free moment. I’m debating whether I should read the After the Fall comics (Angel S6) because if they keep Wesley dead, I don’t know if I can stand the pain. On the other hand, I miss Angel like you wouldn’t believe. I’m very conflicted.