Thoughts on Revenge of the Sith (unboxed spoilers)

I waited a couple of weeks to see it, and went only because I’d heard that it was better than the last two, and out of a feeling that, having seen the first five, I might as well see the last one in a theater.

It’s crap. Not quite as horrible crap as Eps 1 and 2, but complete and utter crap nonetheless. The characters are cardboard cutouts, the acting is pathetic, the dialog is laughable, and the plot is childish. I was sick and tired of the thousands of shots with gazillions of air vehicles zipping by in the background in Ep. 2. It really got tiresome in Ep. 3.

My list of the three worst films ever consists of Ep. 2, Ep. 1, and Ep. 3. Plan Nine From Outer Space looks like Citizen Kane compared to these three films. I would happily watch Plan Nine any day: it’s an entertaining film. I will never watch Eps 1-3 again as long as I live.

Now before you write me off as someone who hates Star Wars or science fiction, let me explain that in 1977 I was in line to see the first show of Star Wars, and watched it from the first row of the great Uptown theater in Washington, DC. I still think Star Wars (which I will never refer to as “A New Hope” or Ep. 4. That’s revisionist B.S.) is a great film.

Nor do I think it’s impossible for an action/comic book/space opera film to have good acting and interesting characters. For example, look at Spider-Man 2. Tobey Maguire does a terrific job of portraying a character tormented by the problems caused by his desire to do the right thing. Interesting character, great acting. And completely unlike anything in Ep. 3 (or 2 or 1).

It seems from the posts here (I read the first few pages, but couldn’t bring myself to plow through the rest) that most of the people who liked the character development or plot had read books, or seen the Clone Wars cartoon, or other material outside the films. I’m sorry, but if you need stuff outside the film to make it work, the film has failed.

I don’t expect my little rant to change anyone’s mind, and if you liked the film, I’m happy for you. But I guaratee that Eps 1-3 will never appear on any serious critic’s top 50 list, nor will they be anything more than a cinema footnote in 20 years. They are not great films.

Wookies, Ewoks & Gungans are designed to sell toys. The coolness that is Darth Maul doesn’t translate fully into a video game, and certainly doesn’t make a cuddly X-mas stuffed toy. He could be handled OK in books & comics though. Much better than he was treated in the movie. C’mon, he’s a Sith Lord. He’s got to have a much more interesting backstory than just “attack dog.”

Now, General Greivous seems custom-made to sell little transformer action figures.

I agree with commasense on this one point:

Darth Maul made me interested in who he was. I wanted to learn more. General Grievous was more like, “what, everyone knows who he is but me? Now I’m supposed to read all the books, comics & watch all the cartoons before seeing a Star Wars movie?”

At least they gave us some history on Dooku, but he was by far the most boring villain of the whole lot.

I don’t think it means the film has failed me though. It’s just, someone should have told me first. I always thought Lucas jealously guarded his main Star Wars universe and only just tolerated all the EU fan fiction type stuff. Now it seems you really should read up on all the EU stuff before seeing the movie.

You know, if you want to enjoy the Serenity movie coming out this fall, you really should watch the TV series. You wanna enjoy a Dune movie or mini-series you really ought to read the books first. You wanna enjoy a Star Trek movie at all you should prolly already be familiar with the TV shows, and have an emotional investment there.

But no one told me I had to do homework before seeing the latest Star Wars.

Actually, if you want to enjoy Star Trek: Nemesis you shouldn’t be too familiar with the TNG shows, or you would realize how horribly miscast and defanged the Romulans were, among other things.

Anyway, I don’t think any of the Star Wars movies are great films. Some of them are cool films, which is a different thing.

Several points:
(1) Episodse 1 through 3 are certainly NOT the three worst movies ever made, and to suggest that they are is laughable hyperbole beyond measure

(2) There was an amusing parody of the Padme-confronts-Annakin-on-lava-planet scene in the MTV Movie Awards tonight

(3) For those who liked Darth Maul, I thought that Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter was quite good, as simplistic airplane reading goes. I’ve actually read almost no Star Wars books, but I picked it up on a whim, and enjoyed it thoroughly.

Thank you! No film series in history has suffered from overinflated expectations as badly as this new Star War trilogy. Episode 1 was disappointing, but it works as a prequel. (It does not work as a stand-alone movie, however. You really need to have seen the original trilogy first.)

All the whining about the Ewoks and Jar-Jar is basically just wanking by sci-fi snobs who instinctively hate anything that gives a movie more mass appeal. These people need to remember that Star Wars is a space opera. It is, first and foremost, entertainment.

Star Wars has no mass appeal without Jar Jar? Wow! Who knew! :rolleyes: 

     Yes that's it, all us fanboy snobs had this almost unknown underground series, that was introduced the the public by such "made for the toystore shelves" marketing ploys as Jar-Jar and the Ewoks. If it weren't for them, Star Wars would have remaind the cult film that it was. 

Double :rolleyes:

  It has nothing to do with the fact that they SUCKED!

After I first saw RotS I was emailing a friend and I mentioned that the same mistake was made with Grievous that had been made with Darth Maul - not enough screen time. But, we know that Darth Maul has killed Qui-Gon, we know that Jango has killed at least one Jedi and we know that Grievous has killed at least 4 Jedi. And I just realized that I don’t really know where I am going with this.

Guys like Durge and Asajj Ventress were considered heros of the sepratists. Stuff like this is why I have recommended watching the Clone Wars before RotS.

Sam Jackson can’t stop shouting because that’s the way he talks. Haven’t you seen any of his movies? Juice, that was a good one. Deep Blue Sea, a shark ate him. A fucking shark ate him!

I thought he left Ani by the river because he figured he was pretty much done for anyway(the fact he survived as long as he did suprised me. Jedis aren’t supposed to killed unarmed enemies, and Anikin was pretty unarmed(not to mention unlegged) at the moment.

Though when Padme asked Obi-wan if anakin was okay, I said to myself “Well, if by “okay” you mean “missing three limbs and very badly burned”, yeah, he’s okay”.

I thought the Ewoks were kinda dumb, but not too terrible. Jar-Jar is just utterly irritating though, and I’m going to tell you why: He has a stupid accent, such that whenever he speaks meesa can’t enjoy the movie because meesa gets jar-jarred out of it. His scenes in Ep I are largely bad slapstick, such as when he gets his head stuck in Anakin’s podracer, or he stumbles his way through the droid army, somehow accidentally shooting a bunch of them. He’s supposed to be from a warrior race, but the Gungans are more gangly and awkward than a middle school dance. And before you call me a sci-fi snob, you should know that I liked Starship Troopers, I Robot, Minority Report, Total Recall, Chronicles of Riddick, and a bunch of other silly movies. If I want hard SF I’ll read Lucifer’s Hammer again.

Really? What was it that really engaged you about him? Was it his first line or his second?

See the point, yet?

-Joe

I dunno, which one of R2’s line’s was your favorite? How about Chewbacca?

I think we all can all look forward to the day when the American Film Institute comes out with thier list of the 100 Most Pussy Heroes/Villains of All Time.

The fact that they had a lot of screen time and had some story development, which gave them character to be interested in. Unlike Darth Maul, who glowered and attacked things, for a relatively short period of time moviewise.

Well, I saw this thursday night and I want to say the following things.

Good…

Loved the Space Battle at the begining. Huge, and epic, puts the one at the end of ROTJ to shame. And while many have complained about it being “too busy”, I was quite glad it was as busy as it was.

In Fact, I liked the fact that this is perhaps the only movie where it really feels like they’re in the middle of a war.

The plot and political intrigue was a bit better then the last film, which in turn was better then TPM.

Jar Jar doesn’t talk.

The Cameo’s more or less worked. Chewbacca showing up didn’t bother me much.

The stuff that seemed video-gamish felt less out of place then in the last movie, where it was pretty blatent at times.

Greivious worked pretty well despite the hunchback, the cape and the wheezing. I thought he was more interesting then Darth maul, at any rate, though Dooku was better still.

Bad…

The turning doesn’t quite work, and it’s a shame, because he’s given more then enough reasons to do so. Unfortunatly, when it comes down it, it feels like Anakin turns because Lucas flicked a switch from Good to Evil. I mean, I know Anakin is pissed because he feels the other jedi are holding him back or are treating him like a child, but the way he believes palpatine, even after he reveals he’s sith lord, is just wierd. He has no reason to believe the Jedi are going to take over the government other then palpatine saying so, and he’s already revealed he’s a fricken sith lord. Hell, Anakin though it was dangerous enough to tell Sam Jackson, er Mace Windu immediatly.

Also, he dove into Child murder pretty quick. Usually people work up to that sort of thing. I know he’s evil, but comeone

The ending seemed to drag on a bit too long, just like in ROTK. Unfortunatly, I’m not quite sure how I’d do it differently, because there was a lot of ground to cover. The only thing that really stuck out was mentioning Liam Neelson’s Jedi, and immediatly made me think “Oh Great. Lucas is going to get out his magic crayons and insert Liam Neelson into the uber-deluxe edition of episode 4 and then claim it was his intention all along”.

Much of the dialouge was pretty bad or laughable. Examples:
-“You’re breaking my heart”. Gag.
-That conversation about Padme and Anakin loving each other near the beginning. They should have just gone with “Promise me you’ll never die” or “maybe feelings are feelings because we can’t help them”
-“Don’t worry, I have threepio to protect me” This is a joke, right? What’s he going to do? Annoy the enemy to death? R2 I can see, but Threepio.
-“Palpatine is Evil!” Obi-wan, I can think of about a million things that would be a a better response to Anakin’s “The Jedi are going to take over the republic”, and you pick that retort? Ye gads! The “I have the high ground” comment was pretty bad too, unless a clever ploy.
-The Imfamous “NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!” That was pretty bad.

As Usual, much of the romance didn’t work, but they toned it down from AOTC.

Padme dying from a broken heart was pretty bad. Only in fiction does this happen.

Comments:
After rewatching Ep 4 today, I noticed the following things:

-I was going to say that Anakin didn’t really transition well to Vader, but then I rewatched ANH(and I have the pre"magic crayon" version), and I noticed something. Vader may be a Badass, but he’s far from a calm one. In fact, he shouted as much as sam jackson and is always very angry. It’s like the petulant little bitch anakin is never really changed, he just got a cooler look.

Most telling is the scene where one of the imperial officers says “You’re all that remains of that ancient religion” and Vader walks over and begins to choke him. Tarkin has to call him off.

The whole thing reminded me of a dog whose master yells at him because he’s biting the mailman, who then stops and acts like it never happened. It almost feels like Vader is the emporers Dog, vicious and feared by almost all, but still kept on a short leash by his master and associates(Tarkin). Vader, who never has enough intiative to ever think of rebelling againest Palpatine until the very end.

In this context, Anakin ROTS actually seems to work pretty well in his angsty way
Final lisitng of the series:

-The Clone troopers actually seem somewhat more comptent in battle then the Original Trilogly strom trooprs.

-Some people have asked why R2 doesn’t have all the cool freatures he had in the prequels. Some ideas have been put forth, but one came to mind today. Early in Ep 4, R2 is captured by Jawas. Perhaps they stripped the goodies off R2 before they sold him to Uncle Owen? There’s nothing onscreen, but we don’t see the entire time they are in the same crawler either.

1.Empire.
2.A New Hope
3. Revenge of the Sith
4. Return of the Jedi
5. Attack of the Clones
6. Phantom Menace

And as soon as you can point out anywhere where I said that “R2D2 (or Chewbacca) needed more character development” you may have a point.

My point was that Darth Maul had, I believe, two whole lines in the movie. But I suspect you knew that, which is why you chose non-English speakers to try to deflect the point.

A character was created that looked neat. Unless you can tell us what else made you think “Darth Maul made me interested in who he was. I wanted to learn more”, it all boils down to a neat-looking character.

Said attack dog character served his purpose and then died. So what?

Besides, if Darth Maul had gotten some flashbacks to give him a backstory I can only assume that like the Ewoks, Gungans, and Wookiees it would have only been included to sell toys. Or so people would have whined, anyways.

-Joe

What’s wrong with the fact that Darth Maul just looked really cool? You aren’t going to get a much more thoughtful argument out of me than that. He was cool. I wish I knew more about him. I wish he had more screen time before he died.

The fact that he rarely spoke just made him more sinister, evil and mysterious. He got right down to the business of killing. None of the usual blathering on that Sith do with their “you should join me on the Dark Side so you can experience true power because I’ve embraced the Dark Side and grown more powerful than you can imagine and if you don’t join me I’m going to destroy you with my great power and then continue with my diabolical plans to dominate the galaxy, bwah, ha, ha!”

One of the most-often heard criticisms of “Sith” is that the intimate scenes between Anakin and Padme fall flat – that their dialogues (esp. the “no, you’re beautiful…” bit) are silly or insipid, that their acting is wooden and lifeless, and that Padme has, for a former queen and a current senator, become something of a domesticated wallflower, relegated to a largely passive and reactive role, with little real assertiveness or persuasiveness in her increasingly troubled relationship with Anakin. Taking those criticisms in account, the following is my radical rewrite of the first domestic scene, at the couple’s apartment on the first night after his return. I hope you enjoy it…

[SCENE: APARTMENT PATIO BALCONY; TWILIGHT. Anakin and Padme are tired and tense. Padme is standing by the door; Anakin is restlessly prowling back and forth near the balcony’s edge.]

PADME: Anakin, I don’t know what to say. We’ve been discussing politics all afternoon, without being able to agree on anything, except for a shared general devotion to democracy and the Republic. I’m really worried. I think the Chancellor is becoming more like a dictator each day, but I don’t seem to be able to convince you. We’ve never disagreed like this before on anything.

ANAKIN: [sadly] But we have, and we still are.

PADME: [shoots him a questioning look]

ANAKIN: [stops pacing] Our marriage? Your pregnancy? How much longer do you think we can keep these secret from everyone, Padme? [impatiently] And why should we?

PADME: [apologetically] Not much longer, Ani, I promise…

ANAKIN: But why, then? Are you afraid the Jedi Council will kick me out? Because I’m not.

PADME: I know. I wasn’t sure about that before, Ani, but when I saw how well you and Obi-Wan were getting along, I felt certain that the Council wouldn’t expel you if they learned about us.

ANAKIN: [pained] Then why, my love?

PADME: [pausing, then agitatedly] I can’t take that risk with respect to the Senate. This civil war is beginning to wind down, and before long, I may have to spearhead a motion to curtail the Chancellor’s emergency powers. For the sake of the Republic, I can’t reveal that I’m secretly married to a Jedi, not yet. It’s a potential conflict of interest that could be used against me in the Senate…

ANAKIN: [relieved, rushes to Padme, sweeping her in his arms] Trust me, Padme, you can handle yourself in the Senate just fine. Everyone there looks up to you… [fleetingly grins down at her, savoring the irony] …because you’ve got more leadership qualities than the rest of them put together…

PADME: [a bit alarmed, and recoiling slightly] No, I don’t! You mustn’t say things like that…

ANAKIN: [gently drawing her to him again] We’re going to have to learn to relax a bit and trust in each other, and ourselves, a little more, or… [drawing her very close, a prelude to a kiss, his voice deepening] …we’re not going to have much fun…

[A nice, long kiss.]

PADME: [noticing the darkened sky] It’s getting dark. We should go inside…

[ANAKIN notices a large, unlit candle either in an alcove or on a pedestal a few feet from where they’re huddled together.]

ANAKIN: Wait…

[With a hint of a mischievous grin, he turns his attention towards the candle, concentrating, and subtly motions towards it with his left (human) hand. Without any obvious Force lightning per se tracing from his fingertips, a tiny yet unmistakable blue sparking, lasting a second or two, ignites the candle.]

PADME: [recoiling strongly, gasping] What was that!?

ANAKIN: Don’t worry; it’s just another Jedi trick, something I picked up lately.

PADME: [still alarmed] I didn’t know the Jedi could do that.

ANAKIN: [slyly] They don’t. At least I don’t know of any who can. Or could, in all our history.

PADME: [gasps again] Then how, Anakin?

ANAKIN: [confused] I don’t know. Not long after I’d arrived at the Outer Rim assignment with Obi-Wan, dreamt it. When I woke up, I somehow knew I could do it, if I tried, really tried… So I did…

PADME: Is this even… natural? Is it… right?

ANAKIN: I didn’t plan it; it just happened to me.

PADME: What did Obi-Wan say? And the Council?

ANAKIN: [evasively] I haven’t told them yet.

PADME: [sotto voce, bringing her fingertips to her lips] No!

ANAKIN: They wouldn’t understand, they’d just be jealous of me! Padme, I have to learn more about this power on my own, before I go running to them…

PADME: [bewildered] You can’t, you… shouldn’t be keeping this a secret from them…

ANAKIN: [accusingly, cutting her off] Look who’s talking.

PADME: [recoiling further, backing away, seriously taken aback, and taking a long pause] You’re right, but that was still a cruel thing to say, Anakin.

ANAKIN: [ruefully] I’m sorry, Padme.

PADME: [earnestly] This new power you have is something different… you need the guidance of the Council.

ANAKIN: [firmly] I do not. [softening] Not yet, anyway.

PADME: Please, Ani, you must trust them.

ANAKIN: [forlornly sad again] We each have our secrets, don’t we?


The pre-emptive “what the hell was I thinking?!?” section of explanations:

First, at the beginning of this scene, Anakin still feels a little insecure about Padme’s love for him, because of her continued unwillingness to go public about their marriage.

Secondly, as of Padme’s line “I know. I wasn’t sure about that…,” they’re talking at cross-purposes to each other. Padme doesn’t really understand the ways of the Jedi Council, nor does Anakin truly grasp current trends in Senate politics – a gap only exacerbated by their recent lengthy separation. In fact, each has a measure of blind faith in the other’s abilities to manage their respective organizations. Padme in fact misreads Anakin’s defiance as a shared understanding of the Council’s faith in him, where the opposite is actually the case – Yoda and Mace don’t, and he’s chaffing at them because of it. Similarly, Padme’s grasp of Senate politics has been on the wane (in the same way that the Jedi’s perceptive abilities have been clouded by the Sith) for some time, her pregnancy is at this point probably an open secret, and her ability to lead an organized opposition to the Chancellor (whose dictatorial potential she’s only now becoming aware of) is fast diminishing – yet Anakin is blissfully oblivious of her vulnerability. The one thing they’re both right about is in their fears for their own future careers in the Jedi and the Senate.

Thirdly, about that Force-sparking bit: it’s an obvious parallel both to his mother’s immaculate conception and, less obviously, to his wife’s more natural pregnancy. Just as Palpatine (or Plagious) had earlier manipulated the damned Midichlorians to create Anakin, so has Palpatine arranged for this new “Jedi” talent in Anakin. Palpy’s purpose in this, of course, was to further drive a wedge of ambition, secrecy and distrust between Anakin and the other Jedi. (In this scenario, Anakin would probably first divulge news of his newfound ability to Palpatine, who would persuade him to continue concealing it from the Jedi.) Anakin’s new trick also establishes a new, doubled parallel with Padme’s pregnancy: for both, a new life (or life-force) is awoken in the body, around the same time (a few months previous), and both elect to keep it a secret indefinitely. Both share their secret with the other on the same day, after their months of separation. Additionally, that Anakin learns of his new ability via a dream reinforces the motif of the dreadful infallibility of his dreams, bridging his prophetic nightmares in AOTC and the ones he’ll be having about Padme and intensifying his dread of Padme’s fate.

It’s also worth pointing out that although it’s just a beginner’s tentative use of Force lightning, Anakin shouldn’t be using The Force for such cheap seduction tricks, period. In this respect, his observance of Jedi law (or creed, or custom) hasn’t improved a whit since his courtship days, when he was using lesser Force tricks to flirt with Padme in AOTC. I think it’s significant, though, that Padme has been portrayed consistently, up to this point, as being genuinely impressed (enthralled, even) by such tricks, and has been more vulnerable to Anakin’s charms when he uses them. (Perhaps Ani has been able to use Jedi Mind Tricks over her after all?) In any event, it’s Padme’s Original Sin – her starstruck, eroticized fascination with Anakin’s strength in The Force, even when overwhelmed by evidence of his shortcomings in other, crucial aspects – and in the long run, her credulousness will get her killed. (It’s too bad her weakness wasn’t illustrated a bit more forcefully in AOTC, and more strongly linked to her declaring her love for him.) Nevertheless, Padme’s alarmed reaction to Anakin’s latest trick is a very human one, rooted in her sense of decency and her sounder instincts. Something about Ani’s latest “Jedi” trick makes her uneasy and suspicious for his sake, without understanding why exactly it should make her feel so.

Fourth, Anakin’s egotism and emotional outbursts further drive them apart. At the end of the scene, they are, emotionally, back where they started – tense, uneasy, at odds and not entirely trusting of each other.

Dude, his name is like, mentioned in the TEXT INTRO. That’s how.

Of course, it IS all explained in the comics and cartoons, which are actually quite good about developing an actual coherent, consistent story. It’s just that Lucas couldn’t give a flying fuck about their craftsmanship.

To Lucas’ credit, he is ready and willing to take and give potshots about his own shortcomings:

Oh yeah, the AFI Lifetime Achievement Award tribute! That’s going to be broadcast in about a week (on Bravo?)… Looking forward to it. :slight_smile: