To the creepy bastard who had nothing better to do than scare me shitless tonight....

The BBQ Pit
201

[QUOTE=Aspidistra]
Exactly. So you’d probably never get pitted like the OP’s target, since you wouldn’t be committing the obnoxious behaviour of forcing your conversation on someone who clearly doesn’t want to know - and if you did, I’m sure there wouldn’t be very much support for it. Nobody’s going to try to dny your right to be out after dark without any particular reason (well, ok, we’re in the Pit, probably SOMEBODY’s going to, but you know what I mean)

On the other hand, odds on you have triggered some women’s spidey senses at some point doing that, and they’ve gone away thinking ‘what the hell was that creepy guy doing sitting around in the park for no apparent reason after dark?’ Sorry, it sucks, but that’s the way it is.

Of course, unless THEY are really obnoxious, they’ll never tell you about it. ‘Don’t bug me and I won’t bug you’ is most women’s after-dark credo - at least, those of us who are there at all.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not complaining. I’m just pointing out that sometimes people are more frightened than they need to be.

I can’t comment on her neighborhood, or the sense in being at that laundromat at that time of night. She lives there, so she has a better sense of whether it’s appropriate than I do.

But it bugs me that people get so frightened so easily. Two of the things Creepy did were relatively innocent, and the other two - offering her pot, and chatting her up - speak more to desperateness than creepiness.

I’d pit him for being rude. Not for being dangerous.

202

I’ve been lurking in this thread and I think it’s become one of those things where being in the safety of your home in front of the computer blunts one to the reality of being in the real world. As a guy, I tend to operate on the sister/mother/wife/female friend principle. I try to imagine how this kind of behavior would affect any of those significant women in my life.

Non-creepy guys don’t hit on women in laundromats late at night. Women aren’t there to be hit on - at least not at night. Clubs or bars maybe, but not laundromats. Non-creepy guys cross the street when they see a woman late at night, just so it’s clear that you don’t intend her harm. That kind of stuff.

I used to work with a cop who started a self-defense program called “Scared Safe,” where you go through an obstacle course of various threats to give you an idea of what you would do if confronted in a threatening situation. I’ve also read some of Gavin de Becker’s work on personal safety. Both of these guys talk about how someone who pushes the limits of intimacy and personal space is someone you should be concerned about. In other words, someone who you blow off with a curt response who still tries to talk to you is a little suspect. Someone who continues to approach you when you’ve made it clear that you’re not interested in being approached… suspect as well. I’m exaggerating for effect a bit here, but it sounds like the creepy guy was continually pushing limits.

The OP pitted the guy for not knowing that those advances aren’t welcome late at night when she was alone. Which is fair if you ask me.

203

Bless you, Hippy Hollow. You’re good people.

204

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]

Non-creepy guys don’t hit on women in laundromats late at night. Women aren’t there to be hit on - at least not at night. Clubs or bars maybe, but not laundromats. Non-creepy guys cross the street when they see a woman late at night, just so it’s clear that you don’t intend her harm. That kind of stuff.

[/QUOTE]

I was with you until this point. There is no way I’m crossing a street just potentially prevent a woman (or anyone for that matter) from being “creeped out.” Is he/she does indeed feel creeped out, they can cross the street.

205

[QUOTE=Red Barchetta]
I was with you until this point. There is no way I’m crossing a street just potentially prevent a woman (or anyone for that matter) from being “creeped out.” Is he/she does indeed feel creeped out, they can cross the street.
[/QUOTE]

That’s fine, and I don’t do it if I’ll end up in bushes or crossing a busy street. It’s just something I do if the circumstances permit. Similarly, I’ll walk a different route in a parking garage if I see a woman alone, but I’m not going to scale the walls. And I don’t think the women particularly notice what I’m doing, either.

206

[QUOTE=Red Barchetta]
I was with you until this point. There is no way I’m crossing a street just potentially prevent a woman (or anyone for that matter) from being “creeped out.” Is he/she does indeed feel creeped out, they can cross the street.
[/QUOTE]
What if you’re walking along the street, minding your own business, and you become aware that a woman a ways in front of you, whom you had not noticed until this point, appears to be pretty actively creeped out because she thinks you’re following her?

If she crosses the street, she’s trying to evade a pursuer and still has to keep tabs on you.
If you cross the street, she can figure out that you’re not following her and you can both enjoy your walk.

I don’t know about preemptive street crossing on the off chance that some female somewhere on the sidewalk ahead might be paranoid, but it seems kind of assholish to recognize you’re in a situation that’s making someone else uncomfortable and not taking simple steps to defuse the situation.

Moral: If you are actually stalking someone, cross the street. It’ll confuse 'em.

207

[QUOTE=Cryptoderk]
Technically technically speaking ;), one could argue that one has a duty to accept laws set by the government or leave society.
[/QUOTE]

Ironic statement from someone with “Banned” under their member name. :dubious:

Seems to me that wading in to criticize the OP’er for being out late is kind of judgemental in the extreme. She doesn’t sound like a moron. She went to do laundry. Wise female Dopers have offered up what sounds like terrific advice on various techniques to feel safer in that situation, but hell- she needed to do some wash.

I’m six foot two and even when I’m not as fat as I am, I’m broad-shouldered and “big”. I rarely am conscious about my physical impression unless I am near a woman who is alone. That sometimes makes me unpopular with small children, though usually I sit down on the floor before addressing em.

The guy was a scuz because he used body language and other behaviors designed to upset and unnerve the OP’er. He may have been stoned and somewhat unware of what he was doing, though IMHO being stoned is like being drunk: your true inner personality shines. So, perhaps the thin veneer of social graces was stripped away.

I won’t cross the street unless I see real fear on a woman’s face. Then again, I’m a big fan of eye contact and if I see someone walking towards me I tend to make eye contact with them briefly just once, then look away.

Calling 911 would have been a champeen idea. The cops would have been quite delighted to take the fellow away. To those who are advocating the stance that " hey, pot smoking may be illegal but it sure ain’t wrong", in most municipalities in the United States, you are wrong. Legislators decide what is illegal or not. Cops enforce the law. If pot smoking or possession is illegal, then it’s illegal.

Moral debates are great for a message board but exceedingly useless at 12:45 am on a lonely street when the cops roll up and start asking questions. The law is the law. If you don’t like the law, I wholeheartedly suggest you work to change it where you live.

That does not change the fact that this man asked her to break the law. Period.

Upon Edit, I see the post from 100100100100001101 :smiley: I HAVE this happen to me. Women are aware I’m coming down the sidewalk or hallway and stop, or move or turn and watch me. What the hell. I cannot help my size or physicality. ( I’m not saying I am a muscleman, just that I am big. ). Makes me feel bad when I see that wariness on their faces but you know, the flipside is that I am not responsible for stopping in mid-stream to explain patiently and quietly that I am not a threat, I have a wife, a teenage daughter and son, whatever. It is my job to live my life and not scare people if I can help it !

Cartooniverse

208

[QUOTE=1010011010]
What if you’re walking along the street, minding your own business, and you become aware that a woman a ways in front of you, whom you had not noticed until this point, appears to be pretty actively creeped out because she thinks you’re following her?
[/QUOTE]

This hypotethical seems rather outlandish. But whatever, I’ll play along.

No, I wouldn’t cross the street then either. I may slow my stroll to give us more space but her being creeped out is her problem, not mine.

209

[QUOTE=Hippy Hollow]
I’ve been lurking in this thread and I think it’s become one of those things where being in the safety of your home in front of the computer blunts one to the reality of being in the real world. As a guy, I tend to operate on the sister/mother/wife/female friend principle. I try to imagine how this kind of behavior would affect any of those significant women in my life.<snip>
[/QUOTE]

As a woman, I operate on the sister/mother/wife/female friend principle, too - I would have asked them what the hell they were thinking, putting themselves in that position in the first place when most women raised in North America know better. As others have said in this thread, there’s what should be, and then there’s what is - women should be able to go wherever they want, whenever they want, and then there’s the reality that you don’t put yourself in harm’s way if you want to stay unharmed.

I think RedRosesForMe is young enough that she hasn’t had her invincibility challenged yet (listen to the bravado coming out of her!), and unfortunately, there’s nothing the older and wiser can say to her to convince her otherwise (it could never happen to HER, oh no. She’s a tough chick.) Bottom line in my opinion - the guy was in the wrong for his extra, way out of the norm creepiness, and she was in the wrong for putting herself in that situation.

210

[QUOTE=kidchameleon]
Under your car? :eek: That sounds like a Darwin Award just waiting to happen.
[/QUOTE]

According to snopes, it’s called “ostentation” when a previously apocryphal legend plays out in real life.

This got quite a bit of coverage on the local news recently: Man Tries To Grab Woman From Under Car

It’s a weird old world.

211

[QUOTE=featherlou]

I think RedRosesForMe is young enough that she hasn’t had her invincibility challenged yet (listen to the bravado coming out of her!), and unfortunately, there’s nothing the older and wiser can say to her to convince her otherwise (it could never happen to HER, oh no. She’s a tough chick.) Bottom line in my opinion - the guy was in the wrong for his extra, way out of the norm creepiness, and she was in the wrong for putting herself in that situation.
[/QUOTE]

OK, I’ve been hesitating to post a reply to this for several hours, I don’t want to come off like a douchebag.

First of all, I know I’m not invincible, hence my being unnerved by this guy. And the fact that I practice situational awareness, and try to learn or perfect self-defense strategies. But sometimes certain needs trump others, and I really needed to do laundry that night (as in, I was wearing the same pair of underwear for 2 days and hadn’t showered in 3 because my towels were all dirty. And that knowledge grossed me out to the point that I wasn’t going to sleep on my dirty sheets anymore, I had. to. do. laundry.)

I went to that laundromat specifically because it was in a better neighborhood than the 2 laundromats that are closer to me. One is in the middle of a relatively nice neighborhood, solidly middle class. Why didn’t I go there? It’s completely dark and deserted (quiet residential neighborhood, few streetlights) and at night turns into a haven for the homeless and drug addicted, given its proximity to downtown and the large open park across the street. The other, while fairly well-lit, is in a much higher-crime area of the city and also has a homeless/crackhead problem. This one was far enough away from the crackheads, well-lit, and on a main (though not terribly busy at night) road. Anyway, I’m getting sick of defending this neighborhood, so I’ll stop.

As for the bravado*, I feel it’s justified. Like I said, I’ve gotten into my share of trouble, and yeah, I’ve been known to kick some ass. How many bar fights have you gotten in (the general you)? Would a blow to the head scare the shit out of you, or just piss you off? Ever broken anyone’s nose? Ever broken up a fight and managed to restrain a guy who was a full head taller and had at least 50 pounds on you? Have you ever broken your hand on someone’s face?

For me, the answers are 1) can’t count, even if you break them down into a) actually hit people b) broke up or c) observed. 2) I have a bad temper, so lay a hand on me and you’ll regret it. 3) One that I know of. 4) Yes, and a couple of others who didn’t have such an obvious height/weight advantage. 5) Twice.

But a bar room brawl is quite different from some psycho dragging you into an alley to rape or kill you. I know that, in the case of the giant in that one fight, he wasn’t trying to hurt me because I’m a girl, and I wasn’t hitting him, just holding him back. If he hadn’t cared, or if I punched him or something, he’d have knocked me into next week. I know that I can’t throw my weight behind a punch if I’m on the ground, and my upper body strength, when compared to men, puts me in a pretty bad place. I know these things. That’s why when I’m out alone, even on a sunny afternoon, I keep my eyes and ears open.

It doesn’t change the fact that I don’t live in a great neighborhood. Hell, yesterday a crackhead was sleeping on the sidewalk outside my apartment in the middle of the afternoon. So, by some posters’ standards, leaving my house alone, ever, even on a Tuesday afternoon, would be awfully risky.

[sub]*I’m not a shit-talking badass IRL. I’m shy, unassuming, don’t like people, and probably come across as meek. Or a bitch, apparently, to some people, if you don’t read my insecurities that way and just think I’m an asshole. I just have a bad temper, so the moment I’m threatened I turn straight into Crazy Raging Bitch. Unforunately for me (well, and a few others ;)), I don’t have the balls to tell someone to fuck off before it gets to that point, but I’m working on it.

The anonymity of the board lets me brag, for lack of a better word, in a way I don’t generally do. It’s not something I’m particularly proud of, but having a reputation that precedes you can sometimes be a good thing.

Jeez, now I feel silly. I don’t live in some shithole neighborhood in the Bronx or Southie, but my life experiences are vastly different from the majority of posters here, I’d imagine.[/sub]

212

[QUOTE=RedRosesForMe]

As for the bravado*, I feel it’s justified. Like I said, I’ve gotten into my share of trouble, and yeah, I’ve been known to kick some ass. How many bar fights have you gotten in (the general you)? Would a blow to the head scare the shit out of you, or just piss you off? Ever broken anyone’s nose? Ever broken up a fight and managed to restrain a guy who was a full head taller and had at least 50 pounds on you? Have you ever broken your hand on someone’s face?

For me, the answers are 1) can’t count, even if you break them down into a) actually hit people b) broke up or c) observed. 2) I have a bad temper, so lay a hand on me and you’ll regret it. 3) One that I know of. 4) Yes, and a couple of others who didn’t have such an obvious height/weight advantage. 5) Twice.

But a bar room brawl is quite different from some psycho dragging you into an alley to rape or kill you. I know that, in the case of the giant in that one fight, he wasn’t trying to hurt me because I’m a girl, and I wasn’t hitting him, just holding him back. If he hadn’t cared, or if I punched him or something, he’d have knocked me into next week. I know that I can’t throw my weight behind a punch if I’m on the ground, and my upper body strength, when compared to men, puts me in a pretty bad place. I know these things. That’s why when I’m out alone, even on a sunny afternoon, I keep my eyes and ears open.

[/QUOTE]

See, the opening couple of paragraphs just does not compute with the rest. So you’re a feisty femme who can be quite the handful as long as everyone’s going easy on you because you’re a girl? Bully for you. Fact of the matter is that if you’re up against someone who might actually want to OMG hurt! you, you’re in trouble. And you know it, and you choose your times and places when you’re going to throw your weight around, typically where anyone who did lay an ungentle finger on you would catch a metric shitload of trouble for it. The rest of the time, when there’s no-one to hide behind if it all goes pear-shaped, you’re a timid little mouse who freaks if someone even looks at you in a funny way. That doesn’t make it the looker’s fault. It may make you one or two unattractive things, though.

I mean, geez, if I’d started a thread about the black guy who had nothing better to do than creep me out in the laundromat, I’d’ve been flamed to charcoal by now. Difference is, I actually do know someone who got mugged for his expensive camera in broad daylight by a bunch of young black guys, and I bet you don’t know anyone who’s been raped in a laundromat.

213

[QUOTE=Malacandra]
See, the opening couple of paragraphs just does not compute with the rest. So you’re a feisty femme who can be quite the handful as long as everyone’s going easy on you because you’re a girl? Bully for you. Fact of the matter is that if you’re up against someone who might actually want to OMG hurt! you, you’re in trouble. And you know it, and you choose your times and places when you’re going to throw your weight around, typically where anyone who did lay an ungentle finger on you would catch a metric shitload of trouble for it. The rest of the time, when there’s no-one to hide behind if it all goes pear-shaped, you’re a timid little mouse who freaks if someone even looks at you in a funny way. That doesn’t make it the looker’s fault. It may make you one or two unattractive things, though.

I mean, geez, if I’d started a thread about the black guy who had nothing better to do than creep me out in the laundromat, I’d’ve been flamed to charcoal by now. Difference is, I actually do know someone who got mugged for his expensive camera in broad daylight by a bunch of young black guys, and I bet you don’t know anyone who’s been raped in a laundromat.
[/QUOTE]

No, the point of that story about the gigantic guy I restrained when he was trying to kick my friend’s ass is that I’m capable enough with wrestling, grappling, and pinning people. However, he wasn’t going to hit me, because I’m a girl. He struggled as much as he could without popping me in the mouth. Moreover, if he had been trying to rape me, there’s no way I could have done anything once he had gotten me on the ground. That’s the whole point. I know I can kick some ass, but if an attacker ever gets me on the ground I’m fucked. So I’m more confident in certain situations where other women would probably be scared shitless, because I know I’m better off than someone who hadn’t had any wrestling, boxing, or self-defense training, but it doesn’t mean I’m invincible.

And every guy who has laid a hand on me during a fight, well, it wasn’t my boyfriend or friends who made him regret it, it was me. So it’s not like I walk around like I’m tough shit because I can sic a big scary guy on anyone I don’t like. Every time I have gotten in a fight, it’s been in defense of someone else, or to break it up. I’ve never gotten in a fight expecting anyone to come to my rescue if things don’t go my way. Most of the time, it’s because a friend is getting their ass kicked by multiple people, so there’s no one left to “save” me. I don’t come out swinging, though, I actually try to break it up. Once someone hits me, though, it’s on.

I know my strengths, so if someone wants to try to mug me unarmed, they’re gonna get hurt. But I know my weaknesses. If some guy wants to rape me, he’s not gonna square up and box with me, he’s gonna tackle me and get me in a position where I can’t throw my weight around, literally, and I’m sure my right hook won’t do much damage without my weight behind it. He’ll be easy to spot in a lineup, I guess, with a couple of black eyes, but I’d still get assaulted.

The reason why half that post doesn’t seem to mesh with the rest is because half my personality doesn’t mesh with the rest. I am shy, quiet, and not violent. I just have probably the worst anger management problem, ever. It’s like the Incredible Hulk, you know, you wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.

The creepy guy didn’t just “look at me funny”, he engaged in several behaviors that made me really uncomfortable. And that is his fault for either flouting societal conventions, or not caring that he was creeping me out.

Of course, it doesn’t matter now, I probably look like some stupid girl who walks around talking shit because my boyfriend will take care of it, or someone who gets off on starting fights when she’s got a huge gang to watch her back. Whatever. I’ve never started a fight, I’ve never not tried to break a fight up. My point was, I’m in a better position than someone who hasn’t gotten into the sort of trouble I have, or had self-defense training, but it doesn’t change the fact that I am at a severe physical disadvantage in certain situations.

214

[QUOTE=PunditLisa]
I don’t understand the venom. Maybe, just maybe, he was hanging around to make sure that you were okay. I’ve seen little kids left alone in cars and I’ll hang around until their parents return to make sure they’re safe. It may creep the kids out, but my intentions are honorable.
[/QUOTE]
You should be calling the cops. I don’t know about where you live, but 'round here it’s illegal to leave kids under 12 (might be 10) unattended in a vehicle.

215

Vote number (is it 5 now?) here. This does not work. As the other women here have stated, all this does is send Mr. Creepy-can’t-take-no-for-an-answer into confrontation mode, where he either gets angry and accusatory, or guilt trips you, or tries to “talk you out of” your decison to ask him to leave you alone.

216

I’ll add another vote. Years ago, a guy started hanging around me while I hung out my laundry to dry on the line behind my apartment building. I won’t go into the details, but it was a fairly creepy situation despite it being mid-morning. I tried monosylabic answers and not showing interest. I tried telling him I wasn’t in the mood for company. I finally gave up, took my damp laundry in, went back to my apartment and wound up closing the door in his face. By the way, the neighborhood this happened in wasn’t one which is usually seen as a bad neighborhood – it was Waikiki in Hawaii, although the guy was a local, not a tourist.

217

And another. I’ve had occasion (was gonna say “sad occasion” but it’s not like this is rare, as probably all the women you know will tell you) to try a number of tactics ranging from silence/ignoring to politeness, directness, to leave me alone. (Ask me about the guy who wanted my phone number so bad - after suddenly appearing behind me in a park in New Orleans where I was walking alone in broad daylight) that I was forced to tell him I didn’t have a phone. (He still persisted. He scared the crap out of me.) One consistent thing though, is that the vibe always becomes increasingly negative the more you say no. Some more threatening/negative, but definitely negative. I think some of you guys out there have little/no experience with what it’s like to have your express wishes denied. You say what you want and it is so. If you tell some creep to leave you alone, he does. Not for dare I say most women. And clearly some of you have no idea what it’s like to know on both a conscious and subconscious level that you can always easily be victimized. You betcha a lot of this don’t let this knowledge run our lives and we’re not irrational about this, but ask any woman and I bet she’ll tell you that this is a reality she knows is true and it’s a part of her life everyday, if not an active, conscious part.

I think there are a handful here that are missing the point, which is that this guy (especially if he was innocently trying to chat up a chick as you say) did not hold up his part of the social contract. You out there that defend him, if you were picking up that a woman felt threatened by you (wrongly), would you end the interaction, or apologize and start over, or change your behavior/body language to make it clear you aren’t a threat, or would you up the ante? (I’ll throw in here that I have read that testing boundaries/exploring how passive a woman will be in face of uncomfortable behavior is a tactic some rapists use to size up their potential victims.) Surely there most be some comparable situation for men, something that all men recognize as threatening, even if not explicitly so. If a stranger goes against this unspoken reality and does not back off but escalates his behavior, you’re saying you wouldn’t feel threatened? I find that hard to believe.

218

Exactly, precisely, superbly, decisively explained, niblet_head. No amount of demanding that reality bend to what ought to be will change that for us.

219

Well, thank you, ETF. That’s very kind of you to say. It’s amazing that I can pull off cognizant thought before I’ve had my coffee. (Implied apology for the wacky parentheses above… )

220

niblet_head hit the nail on the head, much better than I did.

And this sort of thing happens a lot, much more than men probably realize, but women don’t often mention it unless the guy’s creepiness is off the scale. It’s just a fact of life.

Early yesterday evening (dark, but just barely) it happened again, in a situation I don’t think anyone would fault me for. Not terribly creepy, but uncomfortable nonetheless.* I rode my bike to the 7-11 for a soda, locked it up and was maybe 10 feet from the door when I hear someone saying, “Hey… hey… hey!” behind me. I turn around, and it’s a guy in a car some distance from the front door (not parked, he’d just pulled into the parking lot and was sitting halfway between the entrance and exit). Thinking he might need directions, I warily ask, “What?” He says, “Come here…” I say “No, what do you want?” “I just wanna talk to you.”

Ok, directions are not what he’s needing. I see he’s alone in his car, the parking lot is empty, but I’m within view of the employees and customers inside. In the split-second it takes to register that this is not a request for directions, he starts up with his “Come here, baby, I wanna talk to you” again. Gah! So I yell, “I don’t wanna talk to you!” and hurry inside. I made my purchase, and hoped he wouldn’t be waiting for me when I left. If he had been, I would have explained it to the clerks and hung out inside until he left, or had them call the cops if he didn’t leave. I peeked outside, and he was gone, but wouldn’t have been surprised if he had been waiting, because there have been many, many times I’ve made my lack of interest clear and the guy persists, often escalating the situation, making things creepier by the minute. That’s the sort of thing that women deal with a lot.

Whether or not he’s a crazy rapist or just trying to get my number, women don’t like to be approached like this. I’m on foot, you’re in a car. You’ve got 75 pounds on me. The parking lot at the moment is empty, no one’s pumping gas or anything. And you start hollering after me, wanting me to come over to your car because you just wanna talk to me? How 'bout no?

The more often this happens, the likelihood that the guy is going to try to harm you, and is not just socially retarded, increases.

You wanna chat up a woman in line at the grocery store? Fine. How about buying a woman a drink at a bar? Sure. Striking up a conversation at a party? Great. Asking a woman out walking her dog about her labrador? Ok. Even talking to a woman at a laundromat, fine. But don’t do it in situations where she’s likely to be uncomfortable (dark + alone = she’ll probably be uncomfortable). I’d also say, unless you need directions, don’t try to get strange women to come over to your car- that’s particularly suspicious. Whatever the time, if she is uncomfortable, or ignoring you, or telling you to leave her alone, don’t push it.

That’s the difference between her being freaked out by some random creepy guy, or her feeling flattered at your attention but not interested (or interested, too, I suppose. I may meet my future husband when he strikes up a conversation over the asparagus at the grocery store, but definitely not when he’s yelling at me to come over to his car so we can “talk”).

*It registered on the “hmm, something’s not right here” scale, but because I was in full view of the people in the store, and it would have taken approximately .2 seconds to run inside, I didn’t get scared, just wary.