Today I failed as an athiest/Unitarian

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

So today I was hours away in New Hampshire for some software training. I sat next to this young-ish woman, and we started talking. She asked if my name (Nate) was short for Nathan, and I said, no, it was actually for Nathaniel, to which she said, “Oh, like the prophet in the Old Testament.” So, we started talking about religion. She, it turns out, is Pentacostal, and pretty serious about it (I don’t know anyone AFAIK from that particular faith). I mention that my dad is Jewish, my mom raised Lutheran, and I myself am Unitarian.

After lunch, she asks me to explain Unitarianism, 'cause she doesn’t really know much about it. I explain about its Christian roots, I explain about our seven principles, I explain about its openness to other faiths and its liberal political views.

I do not, however, make it really clear that Unitarianism is not necessarily a Christian faith. She had mentioned to me earlier (when I mentioned my dad is Jewish) that she would like to celebrate the Passover; she doesn’t celebrate Christmas and other Christian holidays because they’re too pagan. She also mentioned she had a friend who didn’t believe in God (insert scoff here), but she still liked her anyway.

I am president of my UU congregation, and am an athiest (translated as, “I don’t believe in God” no more, no less). I’ll be the first to tell someone else that they need to stand up and be proud of their beliefs. I am proud of mine. Yet, when faced with someone who would, IMO, be critical of me because of them, I balked, and disguised the truth as much as possible without outright lying. I did not even give her the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we would have had a great discussion about my actual beliefs. I mean, I’ll never even see this person again, so it’s not like I was protecting my career or making contacts in the business.

The things she came away from our conversation with that were false (I didn’t say them, but I didn’t dispell her obvious false understanding of me and UUism) were:

UUs basically believe in God and Jesus. There are Jews and Christians, and even some Buddhists who are UU, but not pagans.

I believe in God.
I feel crapy. Not only did I let Cecil down in the Fight against Ignorance[sup]TM[/sup], but I let my faith down, and myself down as well. I thought I was stronger than that, but I guess I’m so weak-skinned that fear of rejection from a total stranger paralyzed me. For someone who as one of his many possible futures is considering becoming a UU minister, this was one poor showing.
:frowning: :frowning:

2

Did this girl just happen to be, like, super hot?

3

Seriously, though, if she is hot, I’d recommend banging her with a vengance. I’m sure all your problems could be solved instantly by a nice, violent fuck.

4

Which is the 8th principle, but one we UUers don’t advertise very often. Can you imagine the huge influx of new members? We’d never have enough coffee and danish to go around.

5

Well, now, all booty potential aside, I am interested to know more about Unitarianism! I’ve known for awhile that UUs are quite liberal politically, but do Unitarians athiests in general, or is it just you (as a member of a sect that’s liberal enough to say “Hey, that’s cool with us”, whereas, say, Pentecostals would try to change your beliefs, or kick you to the curb)?

I guess I should start by asking what the seven principles are–maybe that would answer the other questions I have…

6

dont be so hard on yerself! i know certified geniuses who cant remember there name or adress when suddenly finding themselves actually talking to a woman!

and like you said, you ain’t ever gonna see her agian, so who cares?

was she hot? :smiley:

Jesus was in a coma.

7

I think you’re being pretty hard on yourself, Eonwe. Lots of people “forget” to say certain things in order to avoid what will surely be a conflict. This woman did not want to hear that you don’t believe in God, I’ll bet. Conversations such as this one usually happen between people who know and trust each other. It is not a conversation for strangers, is it? If you see this woman again, and become closer, you will, of course, have to tell her. But not today.

I’d like to see a discussion on this board about people’s belief systems, and what they’re all about. I’d definitely like to learn more about Unitarianism. And Judiasim. And Buddhism. You can still work toward fighting ignorance!

(psst… Gatopescado, I’d like to hear more about your sig line!!! Jesus was in a coma!!! 4 verrry interesting words.)

8

Eonwe, did you forget to mention those things, or did you realize it at the time and hold your tongue?

If you realized that you were misleading her, do you know why yet? Was it simple “peer pressure”, and fear of rejection, or is there something about your beliefs that you’re secretly ashamed of? It seems that these are questions that you might want to explore if you’re thinking of becoming a UU minister.

Unless of course she was really hot.

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Here’s the website for the national UU Association.

From the FAQ:

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On second thought…
[dons armchair psychotherapist jacket (with patches on the elbows)]
Maybe this girl had such strong convictions and passion that you couldn’t bring yourself to argue with her? Maybe you don’t feel quite as passionate? Maybe you secretly envied her faith? [doffs armchair psychotherapist jacket (with patches on the elbows)]

Hell, don’t feel badly Eonwe. Just about everyone has these types of interactions.

11

Eh, I doubt you’ll be darned to heck for this, Eonwe.

Every conversation is not a crucial battle in the Fight Against Ignorance–although by sharing information about Unitarianism in a friendly, factual, and nonconfrontational manner, I think you did quite a bit to Further the Cause. Yeah, you could have done more, but we all falter from time to time, and, depending on the situation, sometimes biting your tongue will do more good than singin’ it loud and proud.

The next time the subject comes up, you’ll remember back to this experience, and your chagrin afterwards, and maybe you’ll feel a little extra motivation to be more forthcoming. Learn from your mistake, but don’t beat yourself up over it!

12

UU churches vary quite a bit, but in my experience “Hey, that’s cool with us” might as well be the UU motto. At least when it comes to theology.

Here’s a link to the seven principles.

Eonwe, I can relate. I try a little too hard to avoid conflict.

You could treat it as a learning experience. Expose yourself to criticism and toughen your skin a little. Ask yourself, “What’s the worst that could happen?” The odds that a young-ish Pentecostal software trainee would beat your heathen ass to death with a Zip drive are really quite slim. :wink:

13

Eonwe

I know this is a bit off subject here… but I just wanted to say thanks for starting this thread. I read my local UU website & I think I have found my “Spiritual Home”. I had turned away from organized religion out of frustration - they were some of the most judgment people I had ever met (YMMV) and their beliefs didn’t coincide with mine. I am going this Sunday to check it out. While on the website I saw that a friend (whom I have a great deal of respect for) is a Member. I called her & she said she has been going there since 1950 (she’s 75 & still goes) she said she searched out a church that was loving & inclusive and has been a member ever since. Wow. I can’t thank you enough for this thread.

PS - Maybe it wasn’t that lady you were meant to reach today - maybe it was us Dopers? :wink:

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This encounter will prove valuable as a learning experince. Don’t beat yourself up about it, but rather take the opportunity to examine your beliefs, the way that you deal with strong differences in beliefs between people, and the way that you deal with conflict in general.

You will find the right answers for you. Best of luck to you. (and hello to all the other Unitarians!)

15

Eonwe, I don’t think I would worry about this too much.

I assume that you weren’t trying to convert this gal. I would find it odd if you were - at the UU church I attend, recruitment is pretty low key (however, your church may differ in this regard). While I may mention things to a friend or acquaintance, I don’t think I would start a sales pitch with someone who had announced herself as Pentecostal.

Secondly, did you actually want to get into a theological debate with someone that you don’t know/just met? You had to have known that bringing up atheism/Unitarianism with this woman would have led to a debate. An argument, depending on how testy either of you were feeling.

I think I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Ya did good.

16

Since I tend to like people with high standarts, I understand perfectly the OP. I too don’t necessarily life to my own standarts, and certainly I can find some recent example where I somewhat misleaded people in the same way by not mentionning my real stance (though not related with religion, it’s pretty much never an issue here, anyway).
I know it’s not necessarily a good idea to be too hard on oneself, but it certainly makes sense to feel crappy afterward, especially when, like in this instance, for someone who invest himself a lot in the issue at hand, and to do so even more in the future.
So, sorry, I’ve no “feel good” answer for you, apart from “live and learn”. I just wanted to say I understand you. Though it’s certainly not a major, unforgivable fault, contrarily to most of the previous posters, I don’t think it’s unimportant. Plus, even in your best interest, being too preoccupied by the risk of being rejected isn’t a good idea.
I would actually say that the real concern here is your fear of rejection, and not your misleading stance during this conversation. Were you self-confident enough, it wouldn’t have occured (or you would have misleaded her deliberatly, and wouldn’t have any regret…not that I advise to take this course, though).

17

I suppose she was attractive, but there was no sexual tension there, but I’m thinking of making this:

my sig line.:smiley:

Thanks for the thoughtful words everybody. I do realise that sometimes it’s better to bite one’s tongue and save everybody frustration and embarasment (don’t they say discression is the better part of… valor maybe, something like that).

Morgainelf,
In regards to your second post, I don’t think it’s an argument that I was trying to avoid. I don’t think there would have been one. She was honestly curious about UUism… neither of us were proselytising or challenging each other.

In regards to your first post, I did intentionally avoid bringing them up, and chose words very carefully to skirt around those issues. I think my behaviour falls under your “peer pressure/fear of rejection” category. The thing that bothers me the most about how I acted is that I feel like I misrepresented myself in order to make someone like me more. I imagine I would feel the same way if I was in a room with people who were saying derogatory things about gays and I said nothing (silent consent) so they wouldn’t dislike or label me. Taking the coward’s way out and not standing by my principles to make my life easier in the short term.

Podkayne,
Thanks for pointing out the positive that still did come out of this confrontation. She did learn a bit about UUism (I believe it was Smoky Robinson who said “a taste of honey’s worse than none at all”), which was her goal from the start.

Slainte,
You’re welcome! I’m glad this provided the catalyst for you to explore your spirituality with other people again.

To all,
Thanks everybody. I was feeling pretty down about this (and still have to think about it a bit), but what you’ve all said has really added to my understanding of the situation, and I’ll take it all to heart, especially the part about solving my problems with sex. Now if only I could find someone to help me, um, work through my problems…:smiley: :smiley:

[slight hijack]
Hijacking my own thread here, but I thought I’d ask, since there seem to be at least some UUs in here, are any of you going to the GA at the end of this month? I’ll be there and I can’t wait! (oh, for those of you who don’t know, GA is the General Assembly, the annual meeting for UUs held, um, annualy. It’s in Quebec City this year).
[/slight hijack]

18

Ok, so that little quote from “I Second that Emotion” means exatly the opposite of the meaning I was trying to get. I just had it mixed up in my head. Please disregard that failed attempt at cleverness as I spent over 12 hours in the car today (damn I hate Boston traffic) since 5 AM on only 4 hours of sleep. I can be held accountable for nothing I say.

19

Eonwe,
Your’s may have been the better course of action. I have more than once (slow learner) said too much, too soon about my own beliefs and alienated an otherwise promising acquaintance. I was raised Methodist / Baptist in the Bible Belt, but I still don’t always grasp how rabidly some people defend their religious leanings. I am (slowly) learning to disguise the fact that I am quite certain that all the religions that I am aware of are fundamentally wrong in many many ways. I don’t consider myself an athiest, but every organized religion on the planet would, except maybe yours. If I were of a mind to join a church, Unitarianism would likely be the one. That or the Church of the Instant Violent Fuck:D!
The fact that you are troubled by your less than full disclosure with this woman is commendable. That you were less than totally candid is understandable, given that it is somehow acceptable to announce loudly to the world that you believe in invisible omnipotent beings and any who don’t are less than human and will suffer eternal torture for their lack of faith:rolleyes:. You never know when you’re going to meet a complete psycho. You’d think that Militant Christian would be an oxymoron, but sadly, no.
Had I been in your situation, and there were no chance for a horizontal meeting of the minds, or as you say, no sexual tension, when informed that the young lady was a Pentecostal, I would have smiled sweetly and asked her if she had any other delusions she’d like to share with me :p.

20

I’d look at her in the eyes and say, “Poor thing.” :stuck_out_tongue: