Trans HS students participating on sports teams

In another thread I raised the issue of trans HS students’ use of locker rooms. One aspect of that topic involved trans students’ participation on HS sports teams. Obviously, I am ignorant about a great many things. But I was very surprised to learn that the law in my state (IL) is apparently that HS students are allowed to participate in sports of the gender they identify with. I was wondering what folk had to say about that. (Sorry if that has been discussed at length in the other thread - I have not been keeping up with that discussion.)

I’m not a big fan of HS sports, so I really don’t care. My preference would be for a drastic reduction - if not elimination - of competitive sports in HS/college. But it does seem to me that a M to F trans individual might have a physical advantage over similarly aged individuals born F.

And I’m certainly not worried that some male jock is going to don a skirt to dominate some womens’ sport. I’d hope this discussion can avoid such ridiculous arguments, as well as accusations of bigotry, but the discussion will go where it goes.

I’m a middle aged fuddy duddy, so last night I raised this topic during dinner with 4 of my nieces and nephews in their 20s, 3 of whom had been very competitive athletes in HS and beyond. All 4 of them were surprised that this would be allowed, and thought trans individuals could experience considerable physical advantages.

I realize that simply being born male does not necessarily mean one would be a better athlete than a dedicated and genetically gifted athlete who was born female. Serena Williams or Michelle Wie would kill me at tennis or golf (or likely any other sport!) But there are reasons male tennis players, golfer, track and field, swimmers, etc., generally do not compete head-to head, aren’t there?

I also think that this may be different in HS, than in college or beyond, simply because of the age of the students, the stage younger trans individuals may be in their transition, and the purported goals of HS athletics. Sorry kids, but you do not get treated the same as adults in many significant respects. But I am open to being persuaded otherwise.

To what extent does this depend on whether the individual is receiving hormone therapy? Is that relevant? I’m far from an expert, but a brief Google suggests that transgender adolescents can be treated to suppress puberty until they can proceed with hormone therapy as early as age 16.

I’ll hold off more in this OP, and see what the rest of you have to say. And - who knows - maybe I’ll run away and hide like I did in the other thread! :wink:

I don’t know. Maybe Michelle Wie should try her hand at a few PGA events. :smiley:

A couple of factors that will affect this question -
[ul][li]The level of interest in women’s sports is considerably less than for men’s, for participants, spectators, and administration.[/li][li]Transgender participation in sports is going to be rather strictly limited to transmen trying to participate in ciswomen sports, and not vice versa. A transman who tries out for the football team is generally going to get injured and drop out, or simply fail to perform at even a mediocre level and thus not make the team. [/ul][/li]The average differences between ciswomen and cismen do not go away because someone says “I am a woman with a penis” or, especially “I am a man with ovaries”.

Regards,
Shodan

Most US scholastic authorities have adopted a fairly sensible policy on this: let the student compete unless there is a substantial gender advantage. For example, the Illinois High School Association investigates each case individually and then makes a determination based on information supplied by the school.

I don’t know how even-handed the actual adjudication is, of course.

Thanks RNATB. Sounds like that could be reasonable, tho I could imagine challenges if participation is denied.

Also, past performance provides PLENTY of reasons to question IHSA competence! :wink:

Frankly, this seems like the best approach. First, in general, there isn’t an issue with the boys’ sports in general, as there are plenty of examples of girls that play football or baseball or soccer with the boys. As for girls’ sports, it’s a lot more complicated. There definitely are several examples of transwomen who are were very gifted as boys or men athletically and probably would have a huge advantage. The obvious example here is Kaitlyn Jenner. What if she were in highschool today and was transitioning? Presumably she was dominant in high school against the boys and, obviously, dominated against the men in the Olympics. How much more dominant might she have been competing against women in those situations.

On the other hand, the issue with sports in general has a lot to do with natural talent. No one seems to raise issues when some athletic freak of nature competes; after all, pretty much every pro athlete probably utterly dominated their high school team. It seems odd to me that letting some 320 lbs man play on a high school football team running over kids literally half his size and it’s okay. But an average or even slightly under-sized boy starts transitioning, it’s somehow unfair to compete against the girls, yet there’s still plenty of 260 lbs monsters of women out there competing in various sports. Maybe the massive hulk of a woman should really be competing against men instead of women. Hell, I’m a gym rat, stronger than probably 99% of the guys out there, and yet there’s still women stronger than me.

So, yeah, it’s just too fuzzy to have any hard and fast rules, so I guess it’s just best to have each case looked at individually and see what would work best.

Actually, a poor example. Being a decathlete, her (his at the time) Olympic performance marks in each event are only equal to a decent to state meet level (California) high school athlete.

He (she) might well have been a talented high schooler but not spectacular.

Bruce was all state in pole vault and high jump. He also played on the football team and was a water skiing champion. His top high jump (6’2") in high school, would have won the women’s gold medal at the 1968 Olympics.
If he had been competing in the California high school championships instead of the 1976 Olympics he would have won the high jump, pole vault, and 400 meters. If he had been competing in the women’s portion of the Olympics, he would have won at the high jump, 400 meters, 100 meters, and long jump. He would have place second in the javelin toss. The 110 meter hurdles and the pole vault did not have a women’s event in 1976.

I think he means current meet scores. Still not sure if it’s true but I’ll take his word for it.

ETA: I found some of the CA 1976 numbers here. His 4.8m Olympic pole vault was 19cm less than the high school best. His shot put (15.35m) was five meters worse.

This is boxer Ronda Rousey’s take on it for one transgender boxer.

The top 50 HJ in California State Meet history start at 6-6 and go up to 7-2.

Yeah, but how many of those are from 1976 or before? If Jenner was 21 today he’d kill his own 1970s performances given the advances we have in sports science.

That’s what I meant. Some of his marks are state meet level. Take his 1500 and you get about 4:30 full mile. Not even close to state meet level except from the smallest sections. Many of the leagues that won’t even win the league title or even qualify to move on to the post season.

As Bruce, he ran 10.94 for a 100m. Last year, the winning 100 (HS) was 10.31, last place was 10.74.

2014 California Cross Country State Meet

The fastest girl’s time was 16:57
If she ran any of the boys races, here’s her placing in each field.
Div 1-134/193
Div 2-141/194
Div 3-116/194
Div 4-81/192
Div 5-46/196
All races combined 518/970

What are the top scores for a high school decathlete, though?

High schoolers don’t compete at the decathlon in regular competition. They would have to find off season meets.

All states limit the number of events any athlete can compete in for a meet.

Looking for some results.

Here’s one meet. Mt. Sac.
Boys winner 11-12 grade
110m 11.91
LJ 6.16m
Shot 11.90m
HJ 1.75m
400 53.96
110Hurdles 16.37
Discus 31.91m
Javelin 3.96m
1500 5:09.15

Shot put.
National Decathlon Champion 47-11.5
National High School record 81-3.5

The real issue of this will become Title IX. President Obama extended Title IX protection to trangenders.

In a nutshell it says:

And while it’s all well and good to have committee deciding on a case by case basis, that may or may not be abiding by the law. If someone is male and has a significant advantage based on gender it doesn’t say you can exclude him based on an “advantage.”

Now perhaps you could, this will definitely be one that will wind up in the courts.

The LPGA had to change their rules to accommodate transgender people due to a lawsuit a few years ago. They used to have a policy that competitors must have been female at birth. Then a transgender woman starts winning long drive competitions, of course, and trying to compete in LPGA tournaments. The rules didn’t allow her, so she sued and won.

Men and women are physically different, that’s why there are separate leagues and organizations. The boxing example above is an even better demonstration of those physical differences.

I don’t see how 1976 Bruce Jenner vs. today’s top high school athletes is relevant.