Due to still maturing athletes and the limited development time, high school records fall at a much slower rate than world records.
The HS 400 record was set in 1985. The 3200 record was set in 2008 breaking a 29 year old record.
I was just pointing out that unlike most HS athletes with world class potential, a future decathlete will not always be a dominant athlete in HS.
I don’t see what difference that makes. Jenner was just one individual and an obvious example. Clearly the top HS boys T&F stars would trounce the top girls when comparing sport to sport.
Yeah, I still don’t follow the Bruce Jenner thing. Are you saying if he’d have transitioned in high school and competed in girls track and field events, he(she) would have been a slightly above average competitor?
Sorry, I kinda lost track myself.
I think the point is that even an above average(physically male) but not dominating athlete would dominate the girls side.
I’ll try again.
All time national 3200 girls. Only 5 or 6 girls have ever run under 10:00 minutes, 9:48.59 is the record.
in California alone, just in 2015, 406 boys have run faster at least once.
One of the young men at the table yesterday was a college Division 1 tennis player - continues to play high-level club tennis. He was adamant that in HS and college, all 6 players on the mens’ team could beat the #1 woman, and felt that at the pros, at least the top couple hundred men could beat Serena. But he’s just one person with some limited tho relevant experience and an opinion.
I’m interested in looking more into what exactly was said when Title IX was extended to trans individuals.
All of the research which I have done on this subject may be found here: Cross-Training – The History and Future of Transgender and Intersex Athletes (Page 1) | Transas City
It’s a lengthy read, but IMO I present a strong argument for transgender participation in sports alongside the same gender of participants provided hormone therapy has started and been underway for 1 year. I have more than 30 citations, and I attempt to present the arguments against my position as well.
Some more related subject matter can be found here, written by the lead compliance attorney for the KCMO school district, who has become a transgender researcher in his own field. California Leads the Way – Legal Protections for Missouri and Kansas Transgender Students | Transas City
Una, thanks for those. Fascinating reads.
I understand the personal and political conflicts this issue poses, but at some point the insanity has to stop. If you are born with a penis and two testicles, then you are male and cannot compete in sports against females who are naturally inferior in strength against you.
Fine, call yourself a female and demand that others refer to you by your new chosen name. Laws which require others to observe your assertion are absurd. How far are we going to take this? If I say I am a dog, can I compete in dog shows? I mean no disrespect, but when, ever, in our law is someone simply declaring something make it absolutely correct?
I hereby demand that all posters refer to me as “Mr. President” henceforth. Nobody would recognize that insanity, but modern social customs say that if I have a dick and balls, but nonetheless “self identify” as a woman, then you must call me by whatever name I pick and use the pronoun “she.” Is there a limiting principle to this?
So, didn’t want to do any actual research then, right?
The whole concept of “transsexual” or “transgender” is that it’s possible for the mind to be of a different gender than the body. For some distinctions made by gender, it’s the mind that’s relevant: Whether a person is called “he” or “she”, for instance (for referring to things without minds, we don’t use either, and instead use “it”). But the distinction is made in sports because of differences in the body. Male bodies are more athletic than female bodies, and fair or not, that’s just the way it is.
Now, with the advance of medicine, it is possible to change the body to some degree to match the mind. One might rule, then, that if the body is changed enough, the owner of that body can compete with the gender of their identification. But how much change is enough? Going back to the case of Jenner, for instance, I presume that she’s now undergoing hormone treatment, and that the mix of hormones in her blood is now similar to the mix found in a normal female body. But meanwhile, she’s had decades of development during which she had a more typically male hormone profile, and that’s shaped things like bone and muscle development which are difficult or impossible to change after the fact. Even with estrogen right now, Jennings would still be unfair competition against biological females.
Research regarding what? No matter the issue of transgender rights, it is simply unfair to allow a high school male who identifies as female to play girls basketball.
Well, considering that she’s now 65 years old I’m not sure how much of an advantage she’d really have over much younger female athletes at the peak of their abilities.
But if we’re talking about the unfair advantage that hormones might give an athlete, whenever this issue comes up it seems like there’s far more concern about transwomen (male-to-female) competing as women than transmen (male-to-female) competing as women. Yet many transmen are taking testosterone. This would give them an advantage over other female-bodied athletes; that’s why East Germany pumped its female athletes full of testosterone.
I’m not a sports fan so I’m not the best person to make recommendations about athletic policy, but it doesn’t seem more fair to me to have transmen competing as women than it is to have transwomen competing as women.
Except that’s not the end of it.
Someone who wants to be recognized as a transwoman doesn’t just say “refer to me as a female now”, such a person undergoes hormone treatment, lives as a woman 24/7, and typically desires surgery that a normal male would react in horror to (you want to do WHAT to my penis?)
Such treatment DOES have an impact on the body, including diminishing physical strength. Now, does that put them on equal footing with ciswomen? I think that’s a reasonable question to ask - just the fact transwomen tend to be taller than the average ciswoman can potentially give them a leverage advantage. Having narrower hips means they run differently than someone with wide hips. Some things are not changed by transition. On the other hand, by transitioning early in puberty, or before puberty, today’s transwomen are going to have greatly diminished male traits even in their skeleton. They’ll probably wind up shorter, with wider hips, and a much more feminized physique than those who transition after full adulthood. That could go a long way towards leveling the playing field.
And no, I’m not worried about boys/young men proclaiming themselves women solely for the purpose of athletic advantage. Being a transwoman is not about declaring oneself female for the practice or the game then going back to being a boy in every other aspect of life. Normal cismen are not going to give up being men in every aspect of life just to play sports with such an advantage.
In order to be legitimately called “Mr. President” there is a process you need to go through. You haven’t gone through it, therefore we would laugh at the notion.
Likewise, there is a process one has to go through to be a transwoman. Unless someone goes through it no, they don’t have a right to ask others to call them a woman.
Yes, see above comment about needing to go through a process.
But… more generally… I do wonder about this. I have heard from more than one fully transitioned transwoman that she has experienced a marked reduction in strength from prior to transition, even from the two transwomen I’ve known on line who were intersex and somewhat feminized prior to transition as well as the many more who were chromosomally and otherwise physically male. Transitioned transwomen athletes probably can’t compete on the men’s field anymore. They don’t retain full male strength and athletic ability. Add in things like breast augmentation surgery, which some techniques can markedly reduce arm/upper body strength due to cutting muscles during the procedure, and they’re at an even greater disadvantage.
Does this mean ciswomen and transwomen are equal in athletic potential?
Myself, I don’t know. Haven’t researched the topic much myself. I do know that that Una has expressed some surprise and dismay at how her strength altered after fully transitioning. Is that due to the hormonal transition, the surgery, increasing age? I’m a ciswoman who regularly handles weights twice what Una is now saying she struggles with. Is that due to a lifetime of me learning to maximize my use of what leverage and strength I have, or something else? Una and I are of roughly similar age, she’s slightly taller, I’m probably slightly heavier. Would she have triumphed over me in athletic competition pre-transition? Would I consistently win against her now? (experience in a certain athletic endeavor being equal - I have no doubt she could pasts me in a fencing match as I have zero experience in that sport, regardless of any other advantage I may or may not have).
I’m not sure this has been really thoroughly studied, not the least because it’s only been in the past generation or two that hormonal/surgical transition has been really viable.
I think at this point individual evaluation is the only way to go. Pre-puberty boys and girls are potentially a lot more equal in sports than many would like to admit. If a transgirl in high school is on puberty blockers I could see her competing in girl’s sports. A transboy (sorry, that seems odd to my ears, but he would be the counterpart of a transgirl) pre-puberty and pre-transitioned might be at a marked disadvantage competing against cisboys, but post-hormones might be on level ground with them. A lot has to do with whether or not puberty has occurred because that’s when you start getting the really big disparities in strength.
I thought the custom was that we refer to a person by the gender he or she selects without the need for surgery or hormone treatment before hand. I am ready to be corrected, but I thought that me as a man with facial hair and all could decide that I am really female and once I insist on being referred to as a “she” that people should do so and continuing to call me a “he” is improper, insulting, or even grounds for a lawsuit in certain cases. That isn’t correct? You are saying that I must go through a certain amount of medical treatment and only then can I insist upon being called “she”?
Someone who goes through transition prior to puberty would probably have a body very similar to that of cis members of their target sex… but how common is a pre-puberty transition? If you want to make certain of the patient’s genuine identity before beginning medical transition (hormonal or surgical), then that’s going to be pretty hard to do prior to puberty. And if you don’t make certain of that first, well, that has ethical issues associated with it, too.
Transgender and gender non-conforming children can be given medication to suppress their body’s production of testosterone or estrogen and delay puberty. Una probably knows a lot more about this than I do, but here’s the first reputable looking cite I came up with on Google: PBS Frontline “When Transgender Kids Transition, Medical Risks are Both Known and Unknown”.
So a transgender child could potentially be on puberty blockers and perhaps even cross-sex hormones while they’re still in middle school. I don’t know how common it is for transgender people to begin transitioning during adolescence, but the question of which high school sports team a transgender teen should be on isn’t even going to come up except in cases where the teen is already out as trans and presumably has the support of their family. It seems likely to me that a trans teen in this situation would be on some sort of hormone medication, provided their family could afford it.
Honestly, right now I think it’s a bit of a grey area.
Someone declaring to be a transwoman cultivating facial hair? Um… that’s a bit odd, isn’t it? Some transwomen, pre-transition, tried being macho, growing a beard, etc. in an effort to conform but I’m not aware of any that continued in such a manner after officially coming out.
Frankly, I don’t think anyone is going to take a claim of being a transwoman seriously if the person declares it then does nothing to actually live as a woman. That doesn’t necessarily mean conform to stereotypical gender roles, but I think most of us would expect at least losing the beard.
As noted, there are drugs that can delay puberty until a person is old enough to make legal decisions/consent. Hormonal transition can start mid-teens. Surgery is probably going to continue to be held off until legal adulthood at least for some time.
You think that a prime Shaq, Michael Jordan, and let’s just say Wilt Chamberlain with hormone therapy would not absolutely destroy 3 on 5 any women’s basketball team?
Height alone would give them a massive advantage over the average woman, never mind the hormones.
Gee, maybe that’s why women basketball player tend to be significantly taller than average women, too.