Height, speed, strength, how much of that is going to go away after 1 year of therapy? I think people should live more or less how they wish. I just don’t think it’s fair for 99% of the women that participate in women’s sports to compete against physically more dominant competition. Especially where it might be a contact sport like boxing. A prime Tyson with breasts is still going to wreck any female boxer. And that’s not fair to the non transgender females.
OK, there’s a reason people are making a distinction between pre- and post-pubescent athletes here.
IF someone transitions prior to puberty they’re going to resemble their “target” gender more than if they transition afterward. As noted, this is becoming more common thanks to the wonders of modern pharmaceuticals. A person transitioning prior to puberty may not, in fact, enjoy any advantages.
Meanwhile, people are throwing up outliers that are exceptional even among male athletes, as if male athletes are going to undergo transition treatment merely to get a competitive advantage in women’s athletics which, let’s face, get little respect, money, or attention. It just doesn’t make sense.
It’s like the people hyperventilating about transwomen using women’s toilets. It says more about their fears than about what actually occurs.
Look at some of the males playing HS sports and tell me they are pre pubescent. We had some absolute monsters in 10th grade who played football, wrestled, ran track, or basketball.
And who here is afraid of transgender people? Dismissing legitimate concerns about grossly unfair competition as transphobia is not a good debate tactic.
I’d have no concern with transgendered participating in pre-pubescent children’s sports in a co-ed fashion. Nor would I have a problem with sex exclusive leagues or clubs as well.
Sure - but they clearly weren’t early-diagnosed transwomen on puberty blockers, were they? Which are probably the only “men” that should be on a woman’s team
You’re throwing up male “behemoths”. I’m talking about kids who are on puberty blockers. Two different categories. Therefore, I suspect you’re the sort who are worried about kids who are actually male posing temporarily as female in order to gain some sort of sport advantage. That’s not a transwoman.
There has also been a suggestion of evaluating each case individually - just like we’d do so for a number of medical conditions in a student who wants to be an athlete.
Dismissing potential solutions is not a legitmate debate tactic, either.
I spoon-fed you the links to the research I did. You apparently refused to even click on them. Your post reflects a total and absolute ignorance of the impact of hormones, and instead is focused on the penis, which actually in itself does nothing for athletic performance.
So if you are joining the conversation a debater, show your citations refuting what I already presented. And if your post was just transphobia, let me know.
There’s a dividing line between recognition otherwise and recognition for gender in sports. Even I admit that a transgender male who has not had sufficient time on hormone therapy would be unfair competition, and I’ve never said otherwise. It was explained in great detail in the links you wouldn’t click on.
This question has already been answered in medical science. There are literally thousands of “blocker babies” out there right now, and I know of at least 125 being treated right here in my city. And I’ve explained the youth process before - the ethical issues have been resolved via a rigorous process of evaluation.
Surgery is almost always not done until the patient is a legal adult. Some kids/parents have doctor-shopped overseas and had surgery at the age of consent for that country (such as age 16 in the UK), but typically surgery is only an option at legal adulthood.
I don’t know why you’re asking that question if you clicked on my links.
With respect, you don’t understand how devastating extended hormone therapy is to male athletic performance - strength, stamina, endurance, etc. Note I’m talking about the IOC rules for performance. On top of the research I gathered, I’ve been through it myself, as have many other athletes I know. Runners, tennis players, triathletes - all trans, and all just a shadow of themselves and not even placing in the top 10 in local events they used to dominate.
And despite the IOC rules having been in force for more than a decade, no male-to-female transgender person has ever taken a medal in the Olympic games since then. In fact, IIRC the highest placement in any Olympic sport since the policy was put into place was 24th place in a hurdling event, but I’d need to confirm that.
While your credentials and study on this particular issue are fairly solid, I think you are being a bit unfair here. There has never been a Jordan level male athlete that has transitioned. Not even close. Especially in a sport where there is a vast gender skill discrepancy as there is in professional basketball. Frankly no one knows what would happen, but you can be pretty sure that people would bitch, moan, and complain about it. Not only because they are bigoted or ignorant, but also because the bar for acceptance has largely been results based, and because women’s sports are usually fairly low paid. If a trans athlete dominated a highly visible woman’s sport after transitioning, I suspect she would be banned or blackballed on the basis of having an unfair advantage even if she had the “correct” hormone levels. Do you disagree?
There has never been a male athlete who was “Jordan level” in high school. This discussion is solely about scholastic participation (though I assume Una’s linked research discusses adults too).
Jim Ryun. Ran 3:59 ( first high schooler under 4) as a high school junior and ran in the Olympics the same year.
Ran 3:55.3, less than a second slower than the world record, as a senior.
Still holds the record for the mile in high school only competition. 3:58.3 in 1965.
Is it common for transgender high school students to have already started hormone therapy?
I’d say LeBron was pretty damn close to “Jordan level” in high school.
Hmm, I can’t speak directly, other than in anecdotes. I’ve known TG folks who were only suited for being a librarian, and others who were virtually linebackers. I’ve also known more than one woman that was more than a match for her peers, depending on the sport. And I’ve known many more that could be, if they were given the inclination.
In the realm of male performance, I could squat 450lbs using free weights in jr. high, and I know folks who fool with anabolic steroids who can’t match that as adults. I have a body that’s engineered for lifting things, with short limbs and a long torso. In the world of sport, it’s good for being an offensive lineman on an American/Canadian Football team, or being a power lifter, and not much else. I’m small for a male (5’4" or so). So once high school rolled around, if I had kept playing, I was going to be outclassed quickly. My brother is built like a 6’2" version of me, he can toss me across the room with a hip check. But he never had the disposition to play football before he was an adult, even though he would have been physically ideal as an offensive lineman (he was actively pursued).
How does that relate to the gender divide? At the same time, I’ve known more than one female that could have been a match for me in either of those sports, and other women who would have excelled in others, had they been so inclined. But the mental aspect cannot be disregarded. My brother was physically the match for any defensive player that wanted to get through him, but he didn’t have the disposition to do it. I think the physical and mental overlap between the two is so broad that a transgender participant wouldn’t really change the map, even before hormone treatments were taken into account.
Well, they wouldn’t be banned under international competition, nor under any competition which followed IOC guidelines (such as AFA, in my sport). The case I outline on my website of Elizabeth Kocab may almost qualify as what you say - Kocab unquestionably dominated the women’s veteran’s epee at several matches, and fencing forums (online and offline) were filled with XX (or natal) women expressing indignation and outrage. However, it appeared to my eye that there were an equal number of women expressing support, or shrugging their shoulders and saying “well, it may not be ideal but there isn’t a better solution.”
Now fencing is not a high spectator sport. I honestly do not know what the public outrage would be if a Jordan-level athlete appeared as you discuss. I think it would push the debate to the broader public, but I doubt that it would change anything. One of the drivers for the IOC’s rule change was the evolution of human rights laws on gender recognition in the EU. Unless those were to be reversed, it is highly unlikely to impossible for the IOC to step back. And because so many international sports bodies follow the IOC’s lead, I think the net result would be a controversy that would diappear and be forgotten.
I also still contend, although I cannot prove it beyond the research that I’ve done, that the odds of a Jordan-level athlete appearing, being trans, undergoing hormone therapy for two years, and still keeping most of their ability to dominate a women’s sport is unlikely enough that it’s an outlier. And some might contend that even in men’s sports Jordan et al are outliers - like Michael Phelps?
I don’t know if this answered your question?
Hormone therapy yes; surgery almost never. However, due to their young age, there is a legitimate concern that many of them may not have had a full year or two of hormone therapy, and given the short duration of high school (3-4 years), it’s possible they may not be able to compete for much of the time in school anyhow. If they started in Junior High, which is possible, then perhaps.
This is an anecdotal, sample size of one, which I’m only adding here to just help illustrate how I experienced the issue.
From: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16983523&postcount=194
I’ve been about 4 years on full hormones, give or take some months. My strength is still at the “20-pound sack is a chore with both hands.” Photographs of my arms and legs show a significant decrease of muscle and increase of fat, despite working to keep my exercise at the same level. To keep my actual muscle mass at where it was before hormones would require a serious level of working out which I just could not support.
The women I fence initially raised a few eyebrows when I told them that I intended to compete in women’s veteran’s epee, although they didn’t really protest. After they witnessed my strength and stamina loss, some have come forward to tell me that they are “shocked” at how much I lost. FWIW up to when I stopped fencing (due to severe illness), my position in the club decreased significantly relative to the other women. I went from the second-best when I started hormones, to dead in the middle of the pack within 1 year.
Bob Mathias was 17 when he won Olympic gold in the Decathlon, and was still a teen when he set the world record. (And, come to think of it, Michael Phelps had broken a number of world records while still in high school at 17.)
Read 90% of that link and perhaps at this point in time my concerns are unfounded. I did find it slightly interesting that in this uber-PC time there was mention of different genetic averages between the so-called races. I still wouldn’t want to be hit by a Mike Tyson with breasts though.
This “case by case” thing seems to open up a lot of potential unfairness. It sounds to me like if the athlete in question wins a significant amount of the time, she will be judged to be winning because of her so-called gender advantage based on her previous gender. But if she doesn’t win then it will all be okay.
It’s hard to say at which point it would become unfair, and I think the level of unfairness would pretty much depend on the sport. But meanwhile it’s sort of like trying to find out who’s a witch by the water method. (Floats? Burn her. Sinks? Oh well, she was innocent.)
This is sure not an issue most people will worry about because in the first place it’s only going to affect women’s sports and not many people care, and in the second place a lot of winning female athletes are probably using some sort of hormonal assist already (well, I’m not going to call out anybody specifically, certainly not the US women’s Olympic or swimming team).