So most trans women do not succeed at looking “womanish” enough to not be questioned? I doubt that.
We don’t actually seem to know that rate or how it compares to the rate for non-trans women, as was discussed upthread. If you know the actual rates, I’d be interested.
Yes, of course I realize that. That’s why I’ve been careful to specify each time, just like I did in that sentence.
But I have supported this at every turn. People can dress up however they want or walk around stark naked and I will always support their right to do so. That doesn’t mean I have to like their outfits does it?
I am well-informed on this subject, yes.
Thank you, I guess?
I’ve been raped more than once. I’ve been thrown into walls, choked, and punched. Threatened with a gun, but not shot at.
I don’t see what bearing this has on this topic though. Being the victim of violence isn’t really something one must experience to know it is bad, no?
Violence against women is still very common actually. I could easily be in the line of fire.
I’m not employed and most of my family is deceased, so not really an issue.
It isn’t quite what I’m advocating because I’m talking about just being whatever you are, not labeling it and switching around to new labels as you change or whatever, but sure, if someone wants to go from telling people they are male to telling people they now want to be known as both male and female simultaneously and they want to call themselves transgender, I won’t be the one to stop them.
There are many trans people with jobs, medical care, housing, loving relationships, and happy lives. If there weren’t, could you really advise anyone that transitioning is not a horrible mistake? Being trans does not doom one to a miserable life of poverty and pain and there are also plenty of non-trans people who are jobless, homeless, in need of medical care, etc. Of course I don’t want anyone to lack basic necessities, but for me, it is not extra-sad when the person in dire straits is trans. It is equally sad, no more and no less. Plus, the trans person has advocates like yourself and the trans community. What about people who aren’t members of such a community?
Being trans does not have to mean that you are scorned, shot at, pelted with food, festering with untreated diseases, threatened with arrest daily, unemployable, and sleeping behind a dumpster in an alley. Sheesh, is that really what you want people to think?
Sorry trans youths it only Gets Better for regular gay kids… For you, it will only Get Worse…
The ones who can pass aren’t an issue, are they? The problem is that there are some who have that problem and if dressing in a more feminine manner can help them I’m all for it.
Well, the suicide rate, even given the estimated spread, is pretty goddamned appalling. There certainly have been transwomen killed after being discovered. Even if we don’t know the exact rate it’s certainly a real risk.
You’re not objecting to an outfit, you’re objecting to their chosen manner of dress.
Since you have experienced such violence why are you so eager to put others at risk of the same? Or do you think transwomen are immune to rape somehow? That they aren’t beaten as “fags” or “freaks” or whatever?
Men are more likely to be subjected to violence than women (aside from rape). Men perceived as “different” (usually "not male enough) are even more likely to be attacked by other men.
Violence against people is still very common.
Huh. So how do you keep a roof over your head and your internet connection? Pension?
Yeah, I don’t like that type of clothing on anyone. So what? I don’t expect or request that anyone dress to please me. I’m not asking anyone to stop. You can put on a giant cockroach costume every day and I will support your right to wear it, even though I’d actually rather you didn’t.
If we ALL participated, that risk would be very small. I’m doing my part: I don’t beat people up, insult strangers, or stand idly by while others do. I’m part of the majority here, we don’t have to let the bullies run the show.
And frankly, I think gender is a continuum, and I generally prefer to hang out with people closer the center, and not people who are all way to one side or the other. As a result, I have a lot of gay and transgender friends.
Wild and crazy idea- let’s just skip the fucking stupid labels, since they never fit right and are often problematic if not downright bigoted. We’re all “people” .
People made an issue of how I wasn’t like male-bodied people were supposed to be. That I was more like a girrrrlll or something. Since I liked girls and admired them and wanted them to admire me in return I said: “Yeah, so?”
I spent childhood dealing with the fucking stupid label “boy”.
I spent adolescence and early adulthood dealing with the fucking stupid label “faggot”. Because there was a label and an assigned role for any male-bodied girlish person.
I had to cope with all that shit. Being perceived a certain way that never fit me, whether it be “boy” or “faggot”. The way that other people perceive you shapes you somewhat; it’s your reality growing up.
Like I said before, I didn’t start this shit, OK? I got a right to talk about it now if I feel like it.
I want the stupid fucking labels to go away. Don’t get me wrong.
But if that’s going to happen first people have to learn what it’s like to be on the inside of the treatment I got exposed to. So they understand why the stupid fucking labels have to go away. There are a lot of people who are already on board with that notion now but there are still plenty of people who don’t get it yet.
There are kids who are like me, out there somewhere. I don’t want them to have to figure this shit out by themselves and think they’re the only one. I want the story to be out there.
Yes, which is why I said it probably isn’t any better for trans women. But lets not play the escalating game of whose offense is greater, shall we? We win no points with each other saying “I have a right to be MORE offended.”
And honestly, sometimes it feels like the oppression olympics.
I was just in this discussion - regarding women finding drag queens offensive - with my daughter (the young, idealistic, militant feminist) and my friend the straight cis-male of privilege who considers himself an advocate for all oppressed people - he was trying to tell us that we shouldn’t be offended ( I think he felt he had to represent the unrepresented drag queens). I do have to admit that when suddenly it comes out that people who formerly presented as male say something, he changed his mind - male privilege - cis women can say it and get told not to worry their pretty little heads but have a Y chromosome and suddenly you get taken seriously - it torqued me off. But transwomen are making my point for me. Let’s not pretend that an over-sexualized overly bitchy presentation of women done by men for the purposes of entertainment is a compliment to women - any of them. Let’s not pretend that objectifying women makes it any easier for any woman to be a woman. Let’s not pretend that when a frat boy dresses up as a woman its in poor taste, but suddenly a gay man does it and because he himself is oppressed, we can’t call him on it.
At the same time, lets also celebrate that we have freedom of expression, and sometimes that freedom means that things are offensive - which is great because otherwise we wouldn’t have The Book of Mormon or Cole Porter or Madonna or about a zillion comedians. Choosing to be offensive - doing something for shock value - should be something you are allowed to choose. But it should also be something we acknowledge and make a conscious choice.
Yep, drag queens have been offensive to women for quite some time, but being offensive to women is considered basically normal and anyone who complains can be written off as shrill/bossy/bitchy/bitter or intolerant of oppressed people.
Until they start being treated like women, maybe trans women don’t realize exactly what that means. They probably envisioned the positive aspects as being dominant and are disappointed that now they must suffer the daily indignities and susceptibility to violence.
That ignores the fact that transition improves quality of life. It does create new problems, but they are still better than living with gender dysphoria. I have many citations on transition improving quality of life.
I’m not sure what you think this proves. Going to an event does not equal approval of it, but more to the point, some women accept and agree with having lower status.
And some transwomen have no issue with drag queens either. I can probably find an African American who has no issue with blackface if I turn over enough rocks. It is not the case that all members of a class need to find it offensive for it to be offensive to some members of the class. Nor is it the case that being part of an audience doesn’t mean you aren’t offended or South Park would have been pulled off the air after one episode - being offended can be great entertainment.
It Gets Better, But Still Will Suck? Chin up, trans kids!
The trans community, like the gay community, black community, etc., provides support for and advocates for its members. You’ve detailed many things you personally do to help trans people in need. There is nothing wrong with that–quite the opposite, obviously–but not every marginalized person in dire straits has such a group interested in their well-being. With help, hopefully a trans person who is in need will find a fulfilling career, a safe home, caring friends, etc. Unfortunately though, not everyone will get the opportunity to benefit from this type of social support. There is nothing at all wrong with you focusing your efforts on trans people, but it kind of sounds like you are not aware of the existence of others in the same situation who are not trans when you paint the picture of being trans as the ultimate disadvantage.
You even argue that women in pre-voting times in the U.S. were better off than trans people are now. I brought up women’s rights as an example of how social change has come about in the past–by people resisting the status quo–and you think I’m trying to challenge you to an Oppress-Off. There is nothing to gain by comparing these things and neither of us were alive back then to really be able to say for sure anyway.
I’ve known Una since shortly after joining this forum, or about 15 years now. She is definitely aware of other disadvantaged minorities but, because she is an “out” transwoman here she winds up in all the trans discussions, and in her private life she’s in a nearly unique position to really help other people, so she does. Just because she expends most of her “charity capacity” on trans issues does not mean she is unware or uncaring of other people and other issues.
I think we forget how pre-sufferage women actually had it. Most women weren’t middle class, they were poor. They didn’t control their jobs, their marriages, their money, their children. If their husbands drunk their incomes, and beat them, there wasn’t anything they could do. They weren’t entitled to divorces, it was their husband’s right to beat them, and their husbands had rights to their property. Look at the work of Margaret Sanger or Jane Addams or Emma Goldman and you start to get a feeling for how women really lived. Average women. They weren’t safe in their own homes - by law. I know transwomen are far from safe, but if they get beat in their own homes, at least someone is breaking the law.
Again, not to play Oppression Olympics, but its easy to forget history.
I’m sure it does not, but when she says “I’m not really sure you’re seeing how terrible it is for many in the transgender community,” it sure sounds like she does not fully understand that it is ALSO EQUALLY terrible for some people who are not trans, and that there is nothing objectively worse when the person for whom it is terrible is trans.
Oh, please. Women are still barely counted as people, but not even being permitted to vote means your society does not even consider you a thinking adult with any say and has been happy to put that in writing. A little perspective is in order.
Women barely counted as people, but were still seen as useful to society.
Until recently in our society trans people were seen as freaks and horrors, something to be eliminated. At present, they’re barely tolerated by most, and are still seen as an acceptable target by many.