Travesty on Final Jeopardy 2/5/2014

Cafe Society
181

In English grammar, “this element” is a pronoun phrase* that must have an antecedent. Replacing the pronoun with its antecedent is always possible. So whether you call it “fill in the blank” or “replace the antecedent,” the results are the same.

For example, if I say “Look at Rover. That dog is hilarious,” I can replace the pronoun phrase* “that dog” with Rover and the sentence still makes sense, so the second sentence is grammatical. But if I say “Look at Rover and Fido. That dog is hilarious,” I cannot replace “that dog” with “Rover and Fido,” so the sentence is not grammatical.

Due to the way they are worded, Jeopardy clues are nearly always fill in the blank. And the exceptions do not use the “this ___” phrasing.
*I’m using “pronoun phrase” to mean any group of words that function as pronoun, i.e. a replacement for a noun. I’m not sure of the proper name for this concept.

182

I’ve read your posts. Now I’ve read them again. Apparently, you’re hung up on having the terms “element symbols” and of “element’s symbols” in the clue as disqualifying Ag as the answer. As I already wrote, the occurrences of “element symbols” and of “element’s symbols” were both for specifying that only the symbols were being alphabetized.

The clue then wanted the element for the answer. Ag is an element and it’s the correct element.

183

To rephrase the question to properly request an elemental symbol (rather than element’s symbol) for an answer:

“Of the elemental symbols who don’t match their English names, this elemental symbol comes first alphabetically.”

correct answer would be: Ag (rather than “silver”)

184

Doesn’t the first clause eliminate this ambiguity? “Of the elements…this element’s…” Using your same antecedent explanation, how could the “blank” be anything other than “this element”?

Why would “Of the element symbols that don’t match” be a reasonable read of a sentence that specifically calls out the symbol in the second clause? This is where you lost me. This read makes it a different sentence entirely, and it makes no sense as a read of the sentence (IMO), unless we torture the various terms’ interchangeability to an absurd point. At that point you might as well concede that “Ag is the symbol for Ag” is somehow meaningful. The first clause concerns “elements,” not “element symbols.” I don’t get your alternate read of this at all.

Unless I’m misunderstanding you.

185

I think it was given more leeway as a written Final Jeopardy answer. If the same question had been posed during normal play and a contestant had (verbally) responded “Ag,” I suspect they would not have accepted it.

186

Or an even smaller change:

“For the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this element symbol comes first alphabetically.”

A well-formed Jeopardy clue that shouldn’t raise any eyebrows.

(Not sure what distinction you’re making between “element symbol” and “elemental symbol”?)

187

Warning: No spoiler boxes below. Final Jeopardy questions and answers from recent Jeopardy episodes are posted.

Thinking of it as filling in the blank is an excellent way of looking at this. When giving an answer for Final Jeopardy, they have to do it in away where they don’t give away the question. They do this by filling in the words they’re looking for to be answered in question form with words like “this” or “this man’s” etc.
Below are the latest Final Jeopardy answers and questions I have access to (no spoiler boxes):

02-12-14

“Take care of him”, says the man called this in Luke 10 after giving money to an innkeeper

The blank that’s being asked to be filled in is the word “this.” As a statement it would look like this:

“Take care of him”, says the man called the Good Samaritan in Luke 10 after giving money to an innkeeper

But since the response must be done in question form, it must be stated like this:

Who is the Good Samaritan?

This is how it always works on Final Jeopardy. The next two examples preceding the Final Jeopardy above:

02-11-14

The most retweeted tweet of all time happened on November 6, 2012 & started with “four” & ended with these 2 words

The blank that’s being asked to be filled in is “these 2 words.” Filling in the blank in statement form:

The most retweeted tweet of all time happened on November 6, 2012 & started with “four” & ended with “more years”

In question form:

What is “more years?”

02-10-14

In a satellite photo, volcanic activity can be seen on this 10,000-square-mile island

The blank that’s being asked to be filled in is “this 10,000-square-mile island.” Filling in the blank in statement form:

In a satellite photo, volcanic activity can be seen on Sicily

Question form:

What is Sicily?
Back to 02/05/14:

“Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, this element’s symbol is alphabetically 1st”

The blank that’s being asked to be filled in is “this element’s.” Filling in the blank in statement form:

“Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, silver’s symbol is alphabetically 1st”

Question form:

What is silver?
What the statement would look like if someone answered with “What is Ag?”

“Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, Ag’s symbol is alphabetically 1st”
Repeating what I wrote earlier (but fixing a mistaken word): Would anyone ever say or write “Ag’s symbol” in a sentence? No. Because it is the symbol. Google it and include the quotes. I found 33 hits and not one is using silver as the word that is represented by Ag (except the one hit going back to this thread). Contrast that with a Google search for “silver’s symbol.”

I know a rebuttal I’m going to get is “but you said the blank that’s being asked to be filled in is ‘this element’s.’ Is Ag an element?”

Yes, Ag is an element. But it must work with the rest of the statement and calling Ag the symbol for Ag is not something that should fly on Jeopardy.

Likewise, I asked earlier if this would fly:

This element’s symbol, Hg, comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”

What is Hg?

You say it won’t work? But Hg is an element, right? And the blank that has to be filled in but in question form is “this element’s”, so why not? It’s not just because “Hg” was mentioned in the answer; it’s because the answer distinguishes between the element’s name and the symbol. That’s why they could put “Hg” in the answer.

188

Take out Hg from the question, and Hg works as the answer. As in:

This element’s symbol, comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”

Answer: Hg.

189

^ Yes, I understand your position. I read it earlier. My post above explains why I disagree.

190

If you read “What is Ag?” out loud, what do you say?

191

It depends on the situation and context. If I was the host of a game show reading aloud contestants’ responses, I would read it the way Alex did.

Is it relevant?

192

And your position is seriously weakened by your repeated inclusion of the symbol in what you suggest is the equivalent question.

193

OP here. I have been fascinated following all of the discussion above. Seems like my original outrage touched on something deep. Not quite sure what, however.

194

I believe most would read it pronounced as “What is silver?” recognizing that the letters “Ag” equals “silver” equals element number 47 equals the element whose symbol doesn’t match its English name, whose symbol comes first alphabetically. The first is the symbol and the second is the English name, the element is referenced by either. If either is closer to being “the element” “Ag” is as “silver” is only what it is called in English (Silber in German, Plata in Spanish, Argent in French, eun in Korean …) while Ag would be recognized as the element by all.

Please note: the answer was pointing out that the element’s symbol and element’s English name were different.

Not sure why this is so controversial, let alone deep.

195

My position has been argued by more examples than the inclusion you speak of. And you’re wrong. I did not suggest it is an equivalent question. I made it obvious that it wasn’t.

I believe most would agree with me and would read it differently dependent on situation and context. Being a game show host and reading the answer that Alex did, it would make the most sense to read it just as he did.

Would you still read it that way aloud in the following situation?:
*This is the symbol for silver.

What is Ag?*

But there’s more to it than just how one reads it out loud, isn’t there? If you’re making the blanket claim that it’s how it’s said out loud that matters (or that “Ag”, “silver” and “the element 47” are always equal when used in a sentence) and how it’s written is of no matter, then you should be okay with this:

*This element’s symbol, Hg, comes from the Latin word hydrargyrum, meaning “liquid silver”

What is Hg?*

But I bet you won’t be.

196

I didn’t clarify my last point above well. What I meant to specify is that it should be okay to pronounce “Hg” as “mercury” in both instances of the occurrence of “Hg.”

197

Ah. Two fellow creatures, basking in uncertainty.

198

I, honestly, say “What is A G”? Whenever I see an elemental symbol or chemical formula, I always say the letters and numbers. I actually didn’t realize that people substitute the English names for them.