This is silly. The element’s “English name” is offered as a clue to zero in on the element as well, right there in the question. Does that disqualify it as the answer?
Post 118.
Right. It’s plain English.
Since the question wasn’t ‘Ag is the symbol of this element’, nor ‘this is the English name of the element whose symbol comes first among those which do not agree with the English spelling’, ‘Ag’ is not disqualified. Hell, ‘☽’ isn’t disqualified, either, though I’d support punishing someone who used that for being too clever and obscure for their own good.
The second is awkward. But that doesn’t make it wrong.
What exactly are you saying disqualifies it? The fact that it uses the symbol, and also says “symbol”? Then is this also wrong, for a similar reason?
“Of all the elements, Argon’s name is alphabetically first.”
Or is it the usage of the symbol at all, so that this is also wrong?
“Ag’s atomic number is 47.”
Ag doesn’t have a symbol; it is the symbol referenced. That’s why it isn’t just awkward, it’s wrong.
Just read post 118, you’ll see what I mean.
Yes, it is. Ignore the synonym factor for a second. Pretend you don’t know the answer. Hell, pretend you don’t even know what an element is. I’m asking you basically to diagram the sentence in your head. In that sentence, as it’s constructed, which term is it asking you to fill in the blank for: “This element” or “this element’s symbol”? This is purely a question of grammar I’m asking you. Pulling the words, as written, from that sentence, which is the “fill in the blank” term?
Your problem is that you think it is a “fill in the blank” question. It isn’t. It’s a question that asks for “this element”. The element can be identified several ways. One of them is “Ag”. QED.
I already went over what disqualifies it.
Not “wrong” for a similar reason (it’s actinium) but no one talks that way. One would just say or write “Of all the elements, Argon is alphabetically first”.
But it’s a different example then the answer given by Jeopardy. How would we re-write your statement if we wanted someone to provide the correct question? By replacing “argon” (let’s use actinium for accuracy) with “this element.”:
“Of all the elements, this element’s name is alphabetically first”
“What is actinium?” is correct.
Jeopardy:
“Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, this element’s symbol is alphabetically 1st”
As Vinyl Turnip put it, “this element’s symbol” means “the symbol for this element.”
I’ll ask again, would anyone ever say or write “Ag’s symbol” in a sentence? No. Because it is the symbol. Google it and include the quotes. I found 33 hits and not one is using argon as the word that is represented by Ag (except the one hit going back to this thread). Contrast that with a Google search for “argon’s symbol.”
Read my earlier posts. Hell, read my latest posts. I’ve been very clear over my objection to “What is Ag?” being deemed acceptable.
Ag is element 47. “Ag” is the symbol for element 47. Silver is element 47. “Silver” is the English name for element 47.
On the list of “my problems,” this would probably be back on page 243.
But English words and grammar and syntax actually mean things. And I don’t think it’s crazy that a clue posed in English can be interpreted against the conventions of English grammar. But I didn’t ask you to speculate what intention you inferred. I asked you to pretend you didn’t even know what an element is. It’s a grammar question. It has a real, non-ambiguous answer.
But you needn’t play along, since you really already answered, though you implied you didn’t. It is indeed a sentence that asks us to fill in the blank, “this element.” It’s also a sentence that distinguishes “this element” (as a matter of grammar, now) from “this element’s symbol.” They are NOT synonymous in that sentence. In that sentence, “this element” is not equivalent to “this element’s symbol.” Again, as a matter of English grammar.
Now, you are correct, Ag serves a similar purpose. If the question were, “Quick! Which is the element that the Lone Ranger’s horse was named after?” then “Ag” does the trick. But as a technical matter, against the conventions of English grammar (which is basically the question the OP poses)–and yes, this is pedantic–“Ag” does not fill in the blank that that sentences asks us to. “We know what he meant” might be true, but technically, he didn’t answer the English question when he responded, “Ag.”
We may need to hire lawyers. This question is too important to be left unresolved!
Yes, you’re making my point. “Ag’s symbol” in the sentence you responded to is a non sequitur. “Ag” doesn’t have a symbol. It is the symbol referenced in the original Jeopardy! sentence. As x-ray vision correctly pointed out, to assert that Ag is a correct answer to the clue sentence that was offered, is to believe that “Ag’s symbol” means something. It doesn’t.
I’ll look over your posts again to see if I can figure it out. But you never answered this:
Is Ag an element?
That’s irrelevant. The contestant needs to give the element. Ag is the correct element. Unless you’re claiming that Ag isn’t an element.
And Stratocaster, if you agree that Ag is element 47, then the symbol for Ag is “Ag”. If you don’t agree that Ag is an element, then all I can say is that you’re wrong.
It also distinguishes “this element” (as a mater of grammar, now) from its “English name”.
In that sentence, “this element” is not equivalent to “this element’s English name”. Try it. It doesn’t fit.
You’re using terms interchangeably, which is correct if the only question is to isolate a particular element. The Jeopardy! clue did more than that, though. It distinguished between “the element” and “the element’s symbol.” To assert that “Ag” is the symbol for “Ag” is torturing the different forms of referring to the same element to an absurd extreme.
You keep repeating that, ignoring the fact that the same question distinguished between “the element” and its “English name” as well.
I don’t think it did, but maybe I’m missing your point. Where did it draw a line that would lead you to believe “its English name” was some hypothetical concept, distinct from common usage, which is “common English name” is the answer to a form of the question, “Name that thing.” What distinction are you pointing to? The one I pointed to is simple: there are 2 different terms in the damn sentence, and they are not equivalent in that sentence as a matter of grammar.
This feels like torturing common usage to an absurd extreme as well. “This element” has to be described by some term, and in that sentence, the term is something different than “this element’s symbol” because “this element’s symbol” is (1) specifically called out and (2) can’t be the answer as a matter of grammar.
All of the above sounds like it came from someone that didn’t read my posts. What I wrote isn’t irrelevant and I already explained why.
“Of the elements whose symbols don’t match their English names, this element’s symbol comes first alphabetically.”
The sentence points out that elements have English names and they have symbols. Thus it makes a distinction between the element, its English name and its symbol. It does not specify any kind of preference of one over the other when identifying the symbol. If you think it does, please point it out.
Oh, okay. I see your point. I still disagree. If there are a million different ways to describe silver, the one that’s disqualified as a matter of grammar is the symbol referenced, which has to be Ag or the whole alphabetical clue doesn’t make any sense. In that sentence “this element’s symbol” is the one answer that can’t grammatically answer the question.
Again, “Ag” quite nicely answers the question from a “we all know what he meant” perspective.
The word “this” introduces what the question is supposed to be about. “the symbol for” comes before “this” and thus is not included. Jeopardy clues are nearly always worded in this fashion, where the word “this” up to the object it modifies functions as a blank where the answer (aka the last part of the “question”) is inserted.
The problem in the original construction is that it is unclear which noun the word “this” is modifying. Is it modifying “element('s),” and thus the answer is arguably just “silver,” or is it modifying “(element’s) symbol” where the answer would be “Ag”?
I do agree that, if you assume that the “blank” to be filled is “this element,” then the symbol is not a valid answer. It’s doesn’t make grammatical sense when the antecedent is substituted back in: “Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, Ag’s symbol is alphabetically 1st.” Silver has a symbol, but Ag doesn’t, as “Ag” is a symbol. “Ag” is the chemical symbol for silver. It is not the chemical symbol for Ag.
The problem is that I don’t think it’s clear that the clue is asking for the antecedent of “this element.” If it is “this element’s symbol,” you get “Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, Ag is alphabetically first,” which makes perfect sense. Hence why I think both answers must be accepted.
No such equivocation is possible with my phrasing, because, in “the symbol for this element,” there is only one noun that “this” could possibly be modifying. Answering with “Ag” gets you “Of the element symbols that don’t match the element’s English name, the symbol for Ag is alphabetically first.”