Where did I say she wanted to marry this dude? Where did anyone say that?
Aren’t you leaping to conclusions a bit? I am only saying that there is more the the story–and I am not willing to rule out any possiblity. She may well have succumbed to Stockholm syndrome–I am just not convinced at present. I went to HS with a girl who swore she was raped–and she sent Gary Dotson to jail for a long time. Guess what-she made the whole thing up. I am NOT equating the two cases; I am merely reserving judgement until the court trial and evidence.
Just because Stockholm Syndrome was mentioned in the thread doesn’t mean that it actually happened to her - does it?
What I said was not a joke and I wasn’t trying to insult her. It’s not inconceivable that she’s “slow.” It’s also not inconceivable that she developed Stockholm Syndrome. I don’t see that her not running from the loon was any more SS than that she’s slow or stupid or any other reason. I simply feel that the whole story didn’t come out and there are parts of it that leave unanswered questions.
What’d you figure her poor choice was, to hit the road with prophet nutcase and see the grand canyon? To set up a lemonade stand in crazy town with grizly adams? Maybe she wanted to go with him to learn the ways of the force and become a Jedi like her father?
I have yet to hear a more plausible analysis of her behavior. It’s also in accord with her actions.
Some settings that would probably cause the syndrome
Like, maybe a young girl abducted from her home, threatened with death, and repeatedly raped?
I’ve seen no evidence that she’s in any way slow. Do you have a cite?
On the other hand, her experience seems to be a classic case of Stockholm
Even a stupid child, and I’ve not even seen any evidence that ES is mentally retarded, but even a dumb child would figure shit out when the police had already rescued her.
And yet, Stockholm Syndrome answers all those questions.
It’s not inconceivable to me, knowing a bit about how a mormon girl of 14 might think, that once she’d been kidnapped and raped, it would be very very easy for a manipulative man to convince her that she’s supposed to be with him because that’s what he says god wants but mostly that if she got away and went home no one would want her or love her anymore because she wasn’t the perfect, unspoiled sweet little girl they thought she was. Mindfuck of the highest degree. Once he’d broken her mentally, she could quite easily have talked herself out of getting away, because ‘yeah, they’re looking for me, but once they see who I am now, and know what I’ve done, they’ll wish I was still lost. I’m a bad person and I don’t deserve to go home.’
From what I read of the case at the time, and heard from family members who knew the situation, I think the worst the parents could have been blamed for was a shocking lack of ‘street smarts’, or common sense.
Hmm, and if I had the editing capacity, I would add this to forstall any jumpings on -
I’m not implying that mormonism would teach a little girl that she was bad for being raped, or kidnapped. But to someone familiar with mormon teachings, and the psyche of a 14 year old fairly innocent girl, well, I suspect he probably damaged her just as much mentally/emotionally as he did physically.
Yep-she was a year ahead of me. And she had swimming class/gym during the same period as me). Her gym locker was two away from mine, and she was in there changing the same time I was. I cannot recall her name (Cathy? Cindy?) She didn’t talk much, and I have no personal stories about her. When I was at that HS, there were approx 4000 students, so it’s not like I would have known her.
as for FinnAgain–what’s got your knickers all in a twist? OK-so I missed the bit about Trunk saying that ES wanted to marry the guy. That’s Trunk’s issue, not mine.
I am saying that a different explanation may be possible, using the “rape” that Gary Dotson was convicted of as proof that such things happen. So much for open mindedness.
Something tells me that you don’t have much experience around teenage girls.
Harbor-thank you for the explanation–I was wondering!
I’m a rather passionate guy. When I’ve got anything twisted, you’ll know it.
Again, I’d ask you to actually state what you thought her motive was? I’m rather partial to the hypothesis that she wanted to become a jedi knight, myself.
Having a mind so open your brain falls out aint good, as the saying goes.
Again, just because some women will cry rape when they weren’t raped doesn’t, in any way, translate to this situation. It’s an obvious case of SS, and you should advance at least a tentative hypothesis about what her motives might’ve been.
Being that I’m not a pedophile, no.
But, again, what exactly are you suggesting this teenage girl decided to do? Run away from home and have lots of sex with some married old crazy dude? SS works in exactly the way that we saw ES acting.
I can’t say for always, but you’re certainly acting like a dick right now, as shown by the Jedi comment.
Who I am to say what her(ES) motive was? What was Gary Dotson’s accuser’s motive? She was fooling around and didn’t want her parents to find out and she was afraid she was pregnant. Then the story got too big and she couldn’t stop the lies. Hmm…sounds familiar, in some respects.
As for ES, she may not have had a motive. She may well have been kidnapped–I am saying is that I ahve not closed my mind to other possiblities. Maybe she wanted to get away from her family, maybe she was not ready to face something at school, home or church and when the guy took her (if take her he did), she went and literally ran away. Maybe he tied her down and tortured her every day until she was broken mentally and got SS. I have no idea. But I refuse to convict etc without more info.
See above, and thanks for telling me how to post-is there a booklet you publish so that I can study up and learn the right way? I want to do it just like you.
How about since you’ve decided that it must be SS and she must not have wanted any life except that her family was providing, there can be no other explanation for her experience? How about you open your mind?
The story does indeed translate-teenage girls can and do lie their butts off to save face, maintain a victim stance (IOW, refuse to take responsiblity for their choices) or to hurt other people.
Wanting to have sex with a teenage girl does make you a pedophile-get a grip.
She may have been “content” to just go along and drift with these losers. I make no claims as to her state of mental health/illness. I highly doubt she knew what she was getting herself into (if she wasn’t abducted and went willingly). Again, and for the last time–I want more evidence before I make up my mind. Your lack of open mind is not my problem.
So, Monty, it’s okay for you to have your opinion about the case but it’s not okay for me to have a different one? I don’t believe the publicized story and think not everything has been told. You do believe the story. Fine. I don’t need to provide facts to justify my feeling that her story is fishy; it’s just a feeling I have based on reading about the case. You can also neither PROVE that her entire story is completely true. Maybe it is.
FinnAgain: no, I don’t have “cite” that she’s slow or fast or anything else. I have also not claimed that it’s a fact. I said it’s a possibility, just as it’s possible that she suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
What is so hard to understand here? Aren’t other people allowed to have a different take on the case than you two? I think there’s something weird about the whole story. If you don’t, great. I’m not trying to convince you otherwise. I don’t believe I’ve said anything argumentative here but you two sure are getting riled up about anyone who professes anything not to your liking.
The person suggesting that the most parsiminous explenation that’s supported by the most data is incorrect? Besides, aren’t you postulating that ES had some desire to go with [del]her abductor[/del] the wonderfuly friendly and charismatic psycho?
No… no it really doesn’t.
Some girls will lie about being raped when they have consentual sex.
Elizabeth Smart was gone from her family for a very long time and repeatedly molested by a crazy man.
Therefor, Elizabeth Smart really had consentual sex and decided to run away from her family for a long time.
I still prefer the Jedi hypothesis.
In other words, when I was in highschool math classes and asked to construct proofs, I often had a solution that I was tying to get at. I “knew” it was correct. So I’d work the problem as far as the facts would allow, and then put another step in and labeled it “A miracle happens.” This would then bring me within striking distance of the result I was aiming for. Thing is, even then, I realized that wasn’t really part of any convincing proof. Going from ‘some women lie about being raped’ to ‘ES might have lied about being kidnapped because she really wanted it’ containes the “A miracle happens” step.
What evidence do you have for any other possibilities? Otherwise the Jedi hypothesis is about as valid as anything you can spin out of whole cloth.
Maybe she was strong in the force and wanted to craft her own lightsabre.
So she had a bully at school, or an argument with her parents, and decided to run away forever and become the sex toy of some old crazy guy? What actual evidence is there for this position other than it is possible to conceive of it?
You’re welcome.
Yeah, but it’s real short. Here, I’ll transcribe it for you
So, ya know, it’s not so much a booklet as it is common sense. That’ll be $5.99 please.
Sorry baby, you can’t trip like I do.
Why is it that people with factually barren positions most often urge others to ‘open their minds’?
Is there any evidence she was having problems with her family? Did the cops turn up anything? Did her teachers see anything? Did people who knew her think there was any sort of problem? What reasons would she have to run away and be the sexual plaything of some lunatic, or rather, what reasons that you can prove rather than simply suggest?
On the other hand, a kidnapped and abused young girl might very easily fall into SS, which would also perfectly explain her later actions.
There’s a huge difference between a teen hooking up with another boy at highschool, and a teen running away from home forever in order to be the sex toy of an old married crazy man.
Erunh?
Sure. We’re currently faced with a national epidemic of 13 and 14 year old girls deciding to run away from home and become fuck buddies with married lunatics. Won’t somebody think of the children!?!
(She may also have been “content” to study the ways of the force and become a jedi knight)
The null hypothesis is that she’s not insane or retarded. Got any counter evidence? Or are you again going to claim that because you can imagine it, it should be on the same level as things that have proof? Because, personally, I can imagine that she wanted to go with the lunatic in order to form a fantastic Yeti hunting association and stalk the frozen wastes of Nepal. Why don’t you believe me, aren’t you open minded?
For the sake of argument ,let’s assume your story is gospel. Even if she didn’t know what she was getting into, surely she’d have figured it out? Assuming then that she was some clueless idiot, once she figured it out why wouldn’t she rabbit when given the chance?
Hah.
Damn me and my inability to credit any fantasy as being true! Damn meeeeeee!
No.
The null hypothesis is that she’s a normal girl who was abducted and fell prey to a well known syndrome. This requires the fewest leaps in logic. If you don’t have a cite for your claims, I’m afraid we can’t reject the null hypothesis.
I’m sorry, but can somebody link me some raw data somewhere with which I can come to conclusions on this? All I’ve got so far is a bunch of people shouting at one another, and while I’m usually good at deriving the probable truth from such a scenario, my usual methods[sup]*[/sup] are void in this context. Aid me!
[sub]*Said methods often go no further than to examine carefully the posting styles of those involved in the shouting match. It’s surprising how much veracity can be determined by the observed shiftiness factor of participants. Sadly, this thread is for the most part devoid of glaring grammatical errors and/or logical inconsistencies obvious even without knowing the relevant facts. Such is the downside of reading threads on a board devoted to the squelching of ignorance; so far, all I have been able to determine is that Trunk is probably a foamy, nut-filled dessert involving slightly aged cream and questionable animal byproducts.[/sub]
Not sure what you mean by “raw data”, but here is a link to the CourtTV website that contains a chronological list of stories about the case. This AP story, published shortly after ES was found, contains background on Mitchell, as well as some information about ES’s behavior.
People can be persuaded to do things they ordinarily wouldn’t do or go along with; I know from personal experience. Much less a young teen like ES. Mind control exists nowadays.
