Trunk, where's your evidence?

[FinnAgain]

@eleanorigby

** Finnagain**-I see that you are not familiar with the Gary Dotson case.
I have never tried to link here, and am not sure if I am doing this correctly. here goes;
http://www.law.northwestern.edu/depts/clinic/wrongful/exonerations/Dotson.htm

I apologize if it doesn’t work–I have rouble iwth linking, so I never do it. I googled “Gary Dotson” and used the first hit.

<url=http://www.tacomonkey.com>This is a link to tacomonkey, poet, prophet, all around party guy. </url>

Change < > to .

Now, this girl was having actual sex with her boyfriend and decided to lie about being raped. Again, ES was not having sex with anybody. And if she was, why run away for months upon months upon months? It makes no sense.

@eleanorigby

Cathleen never had sex with Gary–this was not case of consensual sex covered up or maligned.** This was a fantasy entirely made up so that a girl didn’t have to face the wrath of her parents/she would have an explanation of a possible pregnancy.**

Sentence one contradicts sentence two. No, she wasn’t claiming consentual sex with Mr Dotson was rape, she was claiming that consentual sex with her boyfriend was rape by Mr Dotson.

@eleanorigby

I didn’t say that it was likely–just possible. I don’t know why that is hard for you–but again, that is not my problem.

I’m sorry, but I’m not the one with the problem.
A great number of things are ‘possible’.

[ul]
[li]It’s possible that she was discovering that she was a lesbian and tried to escape her parent’s displeasure.[/li][li]It’s possible she wanted to go to Hollywood and be a star, and she thought that Senor Crazy could get her there.[/li][li]It’s possible that she worked out a deal with her sister and they were planning on having her sister join in later for freaky sex with a crazy man.[/li][li]It’s possible that she was going to Dagobah to learn the ways of the force.[/li][/ul]

You’ll have to do far more than suggest possibility to contradict the hypothesis which fits all the data and reuqires the fewest leaps in logic. Do not blame your inability to follow the rules of proof and refutation on me. My refusal to knock out a large portion of my brain and nod along with you is not a failing, sorry to say.

[Monty]

@VunderBob

The problem is that you hold an opinion to be asinine whenever it doesn’t agree with your own.

Incorrect, you jerk. I clearly indicated my criteria above for treating an opinion with respect.

[eleanorigby]

Yes, many things are possible.

What is not possible is my wasting any more time here with you. I find your argumentative stance distasteful, your “mockery” juvenile, and your condescension offputting. Pit, shcmit. There are ways for adults to talk to one another.

Argue, debate all you want. I have done my part, as I see fit. I no more want to enter into a debate with you than I want to see the last Star Wars movie(ugh).

I think you looking for a “verbal” sparring partner (if not a punching bag) and I am not interested.

[D_Odds]

Gary Dotson

Fixed your link, eleanorigby. First off, Gary Dotson is not Brian David Mitchell. Cathleen Crowell did not have a corroborating witness, as does Elisabeth Smart with Wanda Eileen Barzee. Thus far, no one has perjured themselves on the witness stand, although Mitchell is doing a good job to show he is incompetent to stand trial. Gary Dotson did not declare himself a prophet, nor did he write any rambling manifestos.

Cathleen Crowell is probably closer associated with Tawana Brawley, an infamous case here in New York. I don’t know the Dotson case, it predates 24-hour national news coverage (not that a solitary rape would likely have been nationally reported). I do know that the Tawana Brawley fiasco stunk from the start, yet it caused at least one of the accused to take his own life due to the negative coverage. While I don’t have a way to link to 18 year old news coverage, I do remember credible sources doubting the “evidence” of an assault on Ms. Brawley by six white officers. At the same time, the Reverend Al Sharpton was leading the charge to lynch the officers, and his “version” of events also got much airplay and many believing there truly was an assault.

Gary Dotson was abused by the system - an prosecutor relying on false and at times perjured testimony and an obviously incompetent defense attorney. He also did not have a national horde of reporters looking over every piece of information and reporting it on a real-time basis; instead he had the fueding Chicago Sun-Times and Chicago Tribune. If he did, he might never have gone to prison. A much bigger flashlight is shining on Mitchell, and it’s finding nothing to corroborate any theories that Miss Smart left with Mitchell consensually nor any other inconsistencies with their stories. Inconsistencies being spun here are being posited from imagination only, without any factual data to back them.

[TwistofFate]

I’m playing Deevil’s advocate here, Finn, I’m waiting for the evidence from the court case to be presented before I make up my mind fully one way or the other. I do think she was abducted, but I’m keeping the whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing at the front of my mind.

@FinnAgain

This requires a good few leaps in logic though. First, we must assume that she wanted to go with her abductor.

I’ll grant you “abductor” as even if she did go willingly, he was not her legal guardian and she was with him without the consent of her parents.

This begs the question as to why they staged it like a kidnapping where her sister saw the face of her abductor. Why not just have ES wander off during school?

I’d guess that she would be noticed missing quicker from scool during the day than she would from her room in the middle of the night.

Second, we must assume that her sister was not just told to keep quiet, but kept to the lie even when all the adults around her were worrying that her sister was dead.

I take your point. I can’t remember what exactly was reported as said to the sister, and I see no reason for her to play along with the kidnapping if she knew that ES wasn’t kidnapped.

Third, willingly going with someone would not produce the “brainwashing” as was seen, SS style “brainwashing” requires a harsh enviornment to break someone and make them reorient their survival tactics.

I’m not talking of the “we have ways of making you talk” psychotropic drugs style brainwashing. It’s perfectly possible for an impressionable teenage girl to be convinced that a life as the wife of a Prophet of the Messiah is totally gravy.

Fourth, we’d still need to postulate a reason for her to run away forever with a strange man.

Ah, but he wasn’t a stranger. he was familiar enough for the little sister to recognise him as the guy who worked several times in the house. It’s possible that he had been grooming her for a while. Also, if he knew that she would go with her, him breaking in to the house ties in with the whole “you’ll never know the time nor the hour that the lord will come”

Her father was given a polygraph, why didn’t inconsistencies in his story come out then?

Because her father truly believed that she was kidnapped.

If Mitchell was grooming Elizabeth prior to her absconsion/abduction, it would make even more sense that the father wouldn’t klnow anything about it.

I honestly don’t understand the jedi hypothesis you keep mentioning, so I won’t comment on it.

[ioioio]

Wow! Not one, but two, people took exception with my expression of feeling:

@laina_f

And it chills my blood to hear 14-year-old girls referred to as “sexually mature”, as was done in one post here. It may be true that they are physically capable of having children. Emotionally, they are not mature at all.

which was in reponse to:

@andros

Pedos target prepubescent children, not sexually mature teenagers.

The clinical definition of pedophilia has been discussed more than once on the SDMB. Although the word is often used as defined in Google’s online dictionary, “The act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children”, we can concur, in the interest of fighting ignorance, to use it only to mean “sexual activity with prepubescent children”.
The term “sexually mature” has no agreed-upon definition, as far as I know. If it means the ability to impregnate or conceive, then we have the cases of a 5-year-old mother and a 12-year-old father. (Other cites for these cases are available.)
To me, “sexual maturity” is not just the far side of puberty; it includes the psychological maturity to understand and evaluate the effects of the decision to engage (or not) in sexual behavior. In our culture, 14-year-olds are not this mature. They generally do not have the knowledge or experience to choose partners wisely or to take adequate birth control and disease prevention measures; they are not ready to assume the role of parenthood.

andros, If you find my opinions objectionable for some reason, please let me know your definition of “sexual maturity”, as well as how it applies to the Elizabeth Smart case.

For the record, I have a niece the same age as Elizabeth Smart.

[D_Odds]

The Jedi hypothesis, or my Illuminati connection, are more in tune with Trunk truly absurd statement that the Smart family was complicit in the kidnapping. It’s conspiratorial nonsense that deserves to be derided. By tying it to Jedis or the Illuminati, we’re effectively saying it is as worthy of serious consideration as those two notions…absolutely none. Whether Mitchell forcibly adbucted Miss Smart, or whether he groomed her for some time away from any others (or, if you want to believe in a cover-up, that any other witnesses have been forbidden from telling the CNN, Fox, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, CBC, AP, Reuters and dozens of other reporting agencies), Miss Smart has stated that she was held against her will, that Mitchell forced sex on her, and that he used threats against her family to keep her in line. Pretrial, the story has, to the best of the public’s knowledge, been corroborated by Barzee, Mitchell’s wife. In the case I linked to earlier, the abductee was even, at one point, permitted to visit her family. Quite frankly, the abductees get mind-fucked and end up not knowing which way is up.

[Diane]

@Pythian Habenero

Thanks. And by “raw data” I meant “news stories, preferably from reliable sources, preferably that quote people who actually had something to do with the goings-on”.

http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?sid=3395&nid=80

For what it is worth, I have a relative who has worked the case. The physcial evidence, exensive interviews with everyone involved (Elizabeth, Barzee, the sister) remain consistant, even Emmanuel’s own writings, show absolutely no evidence that she went with him willingly. It is widely accepted by the authorities and mental health doctors in this case that Elizabeth and her sister continuing a lie without even the slightest contradicition is virtual impossible for an adult, let alone children.

[Trunk]

@D_Odds

The Jedi hypothesis, or my Illuminati connection, are more in tune with Trunk truly absurd statement that the Smart family was complicit in the kidnapping.

I never said the Smarts were complicit in it.

What I meant (and I’m not back-tracking here, just trying to clarify) was that they suspected she ran away and chose to try to save face within their community by labelling it a kidnapping.

@Diane

The physcial evidence, exensive interviews with everyone involved (Elizabeth, Barzee, the sister) remain consistant, even Emmanuel’s own writings, show absolutely no evidence that she went with him willingly.

Where’s the evidence that shows she was kidnapped. . .like say, for instance, a hair sample or a fingerprint from the house that he supposedly broke into?

@Diane

It is widely accepted by the authorities and mental health doctors in this case that Elizabeth and her sister continuing a lie without even the slightest contradicition is virtual impossible for an adult, let alone children.

The little sister couldn’t even keep it straight whether it was a gun or a knife. She forgot what her dad told her to say.

Where’s Monty clamoring for a “cite” for a statement like Diane just made?

[FinnAgain]

TwistofFate: I’m a bit pressed for time right now, but I promise I’ll give you a good response in a bit. And thanks for making it clear that you’re playing devil’s advocate.

@eleanorigby

What is not possible is my wasting any more time here with you.

I’m so sorry. Maybe if you imagine some stuff a few more times and don’t offer proof my mind will become opened, I will be enlightened, and the Kingdom of Heaven will dawn.

@eleanorigby

I find your argumentative stance distasteful,

Fair enough. I find your argument to be Hippie Science. I’ve heard much the same logic from many an acid mystic.

“I can imagine it, so you should just, like, hit the bong again and listen to me, like really listen man, cuz I want you to feel where I’m coming from.”

@eleanorigby

your “mockery” juvenile,

My mockery reflects the quality of your argument sweetheart.

@eleanorigby

and your condescension offputting.

I’ve attacked your argument. I’m pretty sure I haven’t attacked you personally, and if I have beyond what’s necessary to point out that your argument is intellectually bankrupt, then I apologize.

@eleanorigby

Pit, shcmit. There are ways for adults to talk to one another.

Your argument deserves zero respect or consideration. It’s a pipedream. It’s Hippie Science. There’s nothing immature about calling a spade a spade.

@eleanorigby

Argue, debate all you want. I have done my part, as I see fit. I no more want to enter into a debate with you than I want to see the last Star Wars movie(ugh).

It takes two to debate. And pointing out that there is always doubt does not a valid platform for a specific story make. In order to debate, you’d have to have offered proof of some sort. All you did, at best, is provide a few anecdotes. And, say it with me, the plural of anecdote is not data.

@eleanorigby

I think you looking for a “verbal” sparring partner (if not a punching bag) and I am not interested.

No… I’m not looking for a verbal sparring partner, I’m looking to absolutely demolish the flight of fancy which you’ve put forward as being anywhere near equal to the real story which has real proof. ~shrugs~

[D_Odds]

@Trunk

I never said the Smarts were complicit in it.

What I meant (and I’m not back-tracking here, just trying to clarify) was that they suspected she ran away and chose to try to save face within their community by labelling it a kidnapping.

That’s not what you said, but we’ll leave it at that.

Where’s the evidence that shows she was kidnapped. . .like say, for instance, a hair sample or a fingerprint from the house that he supposedly broke into?

You mean the evidence besides the statements from both Smarts, Barzee and Mitchell? You mean the evidence besides an attempted copycat crime linked to Mitchell throught Barzee?

You watch too much CSI. When my house was broken into through a window a few years back and they came to take prints, I was told that unless they left something on the glass itself, I was shit-out-of-luck. Unfortunately, they didn’t. Next time, I’ll call Gary Sinise directly.

@Trunk

The little sister couldn’t even keep it straight whether it was a gun or a knife. She forgot what her dad told her to say.

You got me there. It was all staged. Including months later, when the younger sister (aged 9, IIRC, at the time of the abduction) finally remembered where she had scene the man. How could I have been so blind! :smack:

@Trunk

Where’s Monty clamoring for a “cite” for a statement like Diane just made?

Diane’s statement is hearsay (see definition 2). She clearly states that it is. If it could be cited, it would be a primary source. Hearsay, while not legally admissable, does not equal false.

[andros]

@laina_f

andros, If you find my opinions objectionable for some reason, please let me know your definition of “sexual maturity”, as well as how it applies to the Elizabeth Smart case.

Not objectionable. Just odd. Sexual maturity is a term used in medicine, phsychology, and common parlance to mean physical sexual maturity–the ability to reproduce along with the full or nearly-full development of secondary sexual characteristics. In the case of females, that means menses and development of breasts, hips, pubic hair, etc. It does not include concepts of socialization, emotional maturity, education, experience, or psychological capacity. All it means is that the gal’s got a bod.

So, assuming that ES has reached sexual maturity, finding her sexually attractive is not pedophilia. Wrong, perhaps. Stupid, predatory, sick, maybe. But not pedophilia.

[DarkPrince]

@Monty

Incorrect, you jerk. I clearly indicated my criteria above for treating an opinion with respect.

Jesus, is Manhattan posting under a friend’s account or something?

[FinnAgain]

Monty: Sorry I missed your IM. Didn’t mean to be rude, I was out of the house and evidently accidently left my AIM open. My apologies.

@TwistofFate

I’m playing Deevil’s advocate here, Finn, I’m waiting for the evidence from the court case to be presented before I make up my mind fully one way or the other. I do think she was abducted, but I’m keeping the whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing at the front of my mind.

Fair enough, but the case may never go to trial if he’s not found competent to stand trial. We shall see.

@TwistofFate

I’d guess that she would be noticed missing quicker from scool during the day than she would from her room in the middle of the night.

Maybe. It seems though that teachers don’t immediately go running to the police if a student doesn’t show up to class. They assume they’re sick or cutting. That way nobody would’ve necessarily even seen the looney who abducted her, as she could’ve walked around the block from her school. Abducting her from her home, in front of her sister, guarantees a witness and that he’d be seen.

@TwistofFate

I take your point. I can’t remember what exactly was reported as said to the sister, and I see no reason for her to play along with the kidnapping if she knew that ES wasn’t kidnapped.

Exactly. This is where most of the alternative stories fall apart. You have to be able to explain how the little girl acted.

@TwistofFate

I’m not talking of the “we have ways of making you talk” psychotropic drugs style brainwashing. It’s perfectly possible for an impressionable teenage girl to be convinced that a life as the wife of a Prophet of the Messiah is totally gravy.

I seem to remember one of Cecil’s columns where he said that brainwashing doesn’t work that way. Can’t find a link right now though.

@TwistofFate

Ah, but he wasn’t a stranger. he was familiar enough for the little sister to recognise him as the guy who worked several times in the house. It’s possible that he had been grooming her for a while. Also, if he knew that she would go with her, him breaking in to the house ties in with the whole “you’ll never know the time nor the hour that the lord will come”

Well, I’d still say he was a strange man, even if he wasn’t a stranger per se. Although that does seem to be a minor semantic distinction. But if he knew she’d go with him, why break in at all? Why not have her give him a key to the house?

@TwistofFate

Because her father truly believed that she was kidnapped.

I don’t have a transcript, but I’d wager the police would have asked more than one question. “Did you kill your daughter?”
“No.”
“Okay Mr. Smart, that’s all we wanted to ask you, you can go.”

I’d wager that they asked about his relationship with his daughter in a bunch of various particulars, including to check out if she ran away. This is just conjecture, but I can’t imagine a halfway competent police department failing to ask “Did you and her have any fights before she went missing?”

@TwistofFate

If Mitchell was grooming Elizabeth prior to her absconsion/abduction, it would make even more sense that the father wouldn’t klnow anything about it.

True, but if he was grooming her, when did it take place? Surely someone would’ve noticed?

@TwistofFate

I honestly don’t understand the jedi hypothesis you keep mentioning, so I won’t comment on it.

It’s in the same vein as the Illuminati hypothesis, just designed to highlight that many of the people spinning out alternate stories don’t have any proof.

[ioioio]

andros, We’re cool. I see your point. It’s still going to bother me to hear adult men bandy about the term “sexually mature” when talking about 12-, 13-, or 14-year-old girls. But that’s just me.

[andros]

@laina_f

andros, We’re cool. I see your point. It’s still going to bother me to hear adult men bandy about the term “sexually mature” when talking about 12-, 13-, or 14-year-old girls. But that’s just me.

No, it’s not just you. I’m glad it bothers you. It bothers me, and I’ve leered at my share of teenaged girls. I wouldn’t touch one with a ten-foot ox dick, and I’m a huge fan of statutory rape laws. But I’m not the only normal 'Mercun who drooled over Britney, Kournikova, the Williamses, Drew Barrymore, or Those Adorable Olsen Twins[sup]TM[/sup] before they were legal adults. It’s not pedophilia, is all.

[sup]NB: I did not drool over Britney or the Olsens. Not once. The rest, well . . .[/sup]

[dangermom]

@eleanorigby

I don’t know how Mormon girls are socialized (I have read a few things, but know nothing up directly–I don’t know if one can even generalize to that degree) but ES’s passivity is striking, to say the least. I don’t know if Stockholm syndrome covers it.

I do! I teach, in fact, a whole class of 14-yo Mormon girls every Sunday, and was once one myself. (Granted, none of us live in palatial homes in the Utah hills; we’s California folks.) You’re right that you can’t generalize that much; the girls in my class are each individuals from different families. Mormons have a lot of things in common, but they also belong to cultures all over the world. On the whole, your basic LDS American teenage girl is going to be your basic American teenage girl, only she might not swear or try various illegal substances and will likely wear longer skirts. She’s more likely to play a musical instrument of some kind, and is probably involved in sports.

I can say with a little assurance that your average LDS 14-yo girl might well develop a crush on an older guy, as any 14-yo might–but it’s incredibly unlikely that she would fall in love with an obviously loopy and filthy homeless wanderer. No more likely than with any teen girl from a stable home with a life to live. Most girls can tell the difference between a crazy man claiming to be a prophet and an actual religious leader. I can quite see a girl that age being too afraid to do anything, since he had told her that he could have her family hurt and she didn’t know if he was lying or not.

I must say though, that the whole ES thing really opened my eyes to how much ignorace there is about Mormons in the general population–and how much malice there can be in some people (not directed at Mormons, just in general).