19 posts and I’m the first one to mention manhattan?
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=2744558&postcount=26
twicks’ comment isn’t without precedent, but I doubt it will be as memorable.
I must have missed whatever clever parallelism twickster was going for by saying “knock it the fuck off,” so sorry for that. But yeah, the reason that mod note was appropriate was because their language and tone was inappropriate. But if you are going to take the same sort of tone in your mod notes, then that doesn’t really help engender people wanting to keep things civil and polite. In fact, it looks like to me that there is somewhat of a double standard by that mod note. It’s not like twickster directly insulted them though, so I its not a strong one.
Basically, I think saying “Knock it the fuck off” with the mod hat on falls under the “don’t be a jerk” rule and should be frowned upon by the admins and moderation team here. There are a number of effective and forceful ways to tell people to stop what they are doing that do not include swearing and talking down to them.
Edit: cochrane, I see a clear difference between manhattan’s famous “I am the fucking hall monitor” and what twickster said. I feel like telling someone to “knock it the fuck off” as an official mod note instruction is out of line, whereas calling yourself “the fucking hall monitor” and quoting the person doing it who said the same exact words is not at all rude or patronizing or being a jerk in the way twickster’s comment was. YMMV.
Remember that you’re talking about the mod that called a poster an asshole and then slapped her own wrist for it. This battle is probably not worth the effort.
Yeah, I came to this same conclusion a while ago.
Reasonable or not, mods should set a standard with their staff posting. If someone is so verbally challenged that they need to resort to that type of language to express themselves, then perhaps they should reconsider their “leadership” role here at the dope.
It’s bad enough that there are NSFW thread titles here. I don’t mind an occasional F bomb, but seriously, I much prefer dinner table language to that of a high school locker room.
I’m really not trying to fight a battle, and I’m not even saying that twickster deserves any sort of official sanctions or punishment. Just wanted to put out my opinion on this and maybe get a discussion going amongst the mods/admins that language/tone like that might not be the best thing to engender civil discussions and rules following.
At the end of the day, this mod note didn’t involve me directly at all, and the people who got the note really, really deserved one. So this is not a hill I’ve chosen to die on.
I just remember a long time ago I posted a thread that got closed by Ellen Cherry with the comment “Filing this under the annoying as shit category” or something like that. I found that comment to be insulting and jerkish, and complained about it here in ATMB. Ellen apologized and reconsidered, and eventually opened the thread. She made it clear to me that she meant no offense with her comment and she made me feel a lot better. I was new here and I felt kind of talked down to and insulted when I was just trying to share a funny tool that flipped English upside down. And Ellen stepped up to the plate and made me feel welcome and apologized for her unprofessional tone.
So I felt it was kind of important to speak up for someone else when I saw an unprofessional tone in a moderator note. It made a difference in the past and I was hoping it might make a small positive difference once again. I know it’s really none of my business in the case of this mod note though.
I agree. This isn’t about Twickster, but the type of language a staff person can use, and whether or not there is a different standard for a staff member when posting as staff. What that person does as a member, is totally different than what they do as staff.
Neither Zeke nor Jack are new here, though. They’ve both been around long enough to know what the rules are and what lines are drawn and presumably their hides are thick enough they can handle whatever admonishments are dealt out for crossing the line. Sometimes you have to give the stick and not the carrot. I’ve been around long enough I can handle a “knock it the fuck off” if someone feels it’s warranted.
Twickster said “knock it the fuck off” which is adding “fuck” to “knock it off”. “Knock it off” isn’t typically used as an insult, at least I don’t think so.
Kambuckta’s post (jokingly) said “fuck off”, which people do tend to use as an insult.
Nothing major, it was just a note to try to ease people off from jokingly using insults (in the future) that may or may not be real jokes.
If you can’t tell the difference between “knock it the fuck off” and “you can fuck off too” I don’t know if I’ll be able to get you to understand.
There are no language restrictions except what is stated in the rules.
I mean this in the best possible way, that seems to be a personal problem. I have chimed in from time to time about things that I believe were a problem with the rules. I don’t see where this is at all a violation of any rule. Its not about your personal preference.
Mods are not our leaders. They are the referees. I take my marching orders from Cecil only.
I’m NOT even trying to say that “vulgar” language has no place in any official moderator note, warning, or other action. Sometimes a well placed fuck, damn, shit, piss, (but never cunt, of course), hell, Og, etc. is just fine, and “I am the fucking hall monitor” is a great example of such.
So please stop thinking that I am saying that all “profane” language should be verboten when the mod hat is on. Only that using such words directly against other people as in “knock it the fuck off” might cross a line into “being a jerk” territory that warrants a 2nd look. Maybe it doesn’t. Maybe my sensitivity is too high. But generally I’m very permissive of filthy language and loads of snark, and this one still pinged it for me. YMMV.
The important takeaway - speaking as a mod - is that everyone has their own sensitivity levels. Because of that it would be impossible to keep everyone happy without resorting to treacly levels of wording.
I don’t find Twixter’s statement offensive. Lord knows I’ve been known to use such language on many occasions and the timing for her seemed appropriate. But YMMV.
I’m betting Cecil can find dozens of intelligent ways to get his point across without resorting to that level of language when acting as our beloved leader. But then, Cecil is smarter and more articulate than we are. I wonder if Cecil ever publicly told anyone to knock the f off? If not, I wonder why?
I don’t see it as directed at them. “Knock it the fuck off” is not “fuck off”; it’s just “fucking stop”. The “fuck” is an intensifier, not an invective.
Fuck off is not an insult. It’s an intensified version of “go away” and this is an attempt at semantic nitpicking in order to justify a moderating double standard.
I’m of the opinion that “fuck off” is an insult and I would/will mod it as such if I ever see it.
Understood.
You’re still wrong, though.
I’m all for the staff dropping some of the recent hypersensitive interpretations of what constitutes a personal insult, but this argument makes no sense. By your logic, “eat shit” and “go fuck your mother” should be perfectly acceptable in all forums.
The rule against personal insults has never been strictly confined to name-calling. (If it was, GD would be nothing but “fuck you!” “no, fuck you!” ad infinitum.) I don’t think I can ever remember a time when you could tell someone to fuck off outside of the Pit (in a non-joking context) without a mod stepping in. Of course, it was simpler back then, as it really was pretty obviously over the line stuff like telling people to fuck off or calling them assholes that drew mod attention. Now that saying someone is lying or a racist or mean also counts as personal insults, it’s harder to know which types of rudeness are allowed and which are forbidden. This is why I’m super nice to everybody, just to be safe.
Eat shit and go fuck your mother have literal interpretations that are offensive, as eating feces and having sexual relations with one’s mother are generally considered taboo. Fuck off has no equivalent literal meaning and is purely emphatic. The difference between ‘go away’ and ‘fuck off’ is very similar to the difference in meaning between ‘knock it off’ and ‘knock it the fuck off’ with the former being a very plain statement and the latter being an emphatic version with a bit of exasperation, perhaps.
He’s fucking right.