(I really hope there is nobody still reading a plot analysis thread that needs to be told about possible spoilers for the movie.)
I think there is a clear difference between Faramir and Boromir, even with the movie version. Faramir wants to take the ring to Gondor for the sake of Gondor. Boromir wants the ring for HIMSELF, in the name of Gondor.
While it jarred me upon watching the movie, the change makes thematic sense for reasons that have been touched on above. (Namely, that walking away from the ring is not done lightly or easily.)
Most of the changes were jarring when I saw them, but made sense as I thought about them later.
The elves at Helm’s Deep, for example, was a good way of answering the question “What are the elves up to, during all of this?” Sure, it’s not the same answer as the book, but it answers a reasonable question in a reasonable way.
The ents saying no at first sort of works like the Faramir thing. It emphasizes that these are not easy choices and that ents do not make decisions quickly or lightly. It still bothers me a little, but not as much as when I watched it first.
The faux Aragorn death scene still bothers me. Delete that, and I’ll give it an A+. (As nitpick fan-boy, I walked out feeling B+ and it has grown to a solid A, as I have thought about it more.)
The changes didn’t bother me. I like Drastic’s version of the Ent scenes better, though.
I can understand why they didn’t have the Huorns in the movie. It would be too hard to explain what the Huorns are, and how they’re different from Ents.
The Ent-draught part is trivial, and its ommision doesn’t effect the story at all.
Aragorn’s near-death kinda bothered me, since it was obviously just an excuse to show Arwen again.
Gollum is without a doubt the best CGI character I’ve ever seen.
I already said this in another thread, but: Aragorn’s fake death bugged me a lot at first, and it would still bug me if they had just left it at that. But I don’t think that it was “just” to show Arwen again; I think the whole Aragorn/Arwen thing is shaping up to be one of the best decisions they made with the interpretation. Two of the themes that run through the book: the fight against evil goes on even when it seems that there’s no hope; and even if the battle against Sauron succeeds, an age of the world is ending as the elves leave middle-earth. That would be hard to convey without rooting it in characters, and Aragorn and Arwen are the perfect characters to show that. AND, if they hadn’t inserted it into the second movie, then it would’ve been lost by the time of the third movie; The Two Towers would have been nothing more than an action-heavy bridge between the two good parts of the story.
Agreed.
In fact, it’s so well-done that it made the Ents look kind of jarring by comparison. But I started to wonder if maybe that was intentional. I could just be a WETA apologist here, but I got the impression that the animation of the Ents, which looked like stop-motion animation even though it was most likely all computer-generated, was a stylistic choice.
I think that while there were deviations from the book in TTT, and they did distract a bit from the impressiveness of it, it certainly is NOTHING compared to what we already KNOW will be chopped out of ROTK, not to mention the stuff we aren’t sure about.
So, FOTR was fairly faithful (excepting TB), TTT less so, and ROTK will be egregiously hacked to death. But, I dont see how you CAN mess up ROTK. Even with the deadly omissions I think it will still be better than TTT.
I have a question about TT. I read the books many years ago and can’t recall if this was clearer in the books than it was in the movie. I also have tried to read through all the TT threads here and haven’t seen this discussed.
When Faromir decides to let Frodo and Sam go, Faromir’s men say something along the lines of “You know our law, if you release them your life will be forfeit.” Faromir says something along the lines of “Then it is forfeit.” What law was being referenced here? Somehow this line made no sense to me in the context of the movie. Any explanation would be appreciated.
Why would Sauron fear Gandalf would take the ring? Did Gandalf state in the first book that none could stand before the ring, and any would corrupt? (and the implication seems to be that they would become Saurons minions)? Or am I misinterpreting this?
I didn’t like the whole battle at Helms Deep either. The first thing I noticed was that there was no supply trains. An army of 10,000 would require ALOT of supplies. That and they marched up to about 100 yards from the fortress walls and stopped. Ok, obviously there isn’t going to be a parley, so why did the archers in the fortress not start shooting when there were half a mile away for further. (the bows looked like heavy recurve bows to me, with a range of 3/4 of a mile, similar to the welsh longbows)
How did those orcs march all day, and probably had been marching hard for several days, and then go right into tackling on a highly defended fortress with no sleep or food?
(I like my war scenes to be at least halfway realistic, and the whole battle was nowhere near that)
Other than that and the whole crappy Arwen add on, I liked it.
I think it just means Gandalf or any other powerfull person using the ring would become as evil as Sauron eventually. They would still try to destroy Sauron, and would actually have the power to do so using the ring, which is basically what Sauron fears the most since the thought of anyone actually trying to destroy the powerfull ring does not occur to him.
Another quick question about the TTT movie. Before the elves show up at helm deep there is a scene showing Galadriel trying to talk Elrond into helping the humans fight the war, and then the elves show up. But the elves that show up are lead by Haldir, who is one of Galadriels errrm… tribe? so did Elrond refuse to help and she had to help them alone, or where some of the elven archers sent by Elrond also?
As long as we’re at it, here are some of the things that have bothered me, but in general I liked this movie even better than the first one, and I can’t wait for the resolution.
Rohan looked absolutely nothing like I pictured. I had wide open, green plains in my mind.
Theoden looked about right, but where the heck was the REST of his kingdom? I never pictured a little rural town with a tiny castle on a hill. I pictured much more there, an entire city.
The fact that Faramir did NOT pick Boromir’s split horn from the water, or even hear it’s last blow bothered.
The whole damn world seems so much smaller. I realize it’s because you don’t have enough time in the movie to show how long it takes to get from one place to another in Middle Earth, but when they showed Isengard and Morder at night, and it looked like they were 3 miles apart, that didn’t do the world any justice.
I’m sure I’ll think of more as time goes on. At least Aragorn seems much more like the real Aragorn now. When I saw the first movie I almost choked when I saw him because he looked so damn plain. Again, not what I pictured. Maybe it’s just because I’ve gotten used to him.
The books are so great that I’m sure when I read them again my mental images won’t be corrupted by the movie.
I just saw it (again) last night and I still can’t remember the exact dialogue. Anyway, he says that he’s coming from Elrond and/or Rivendell; it’s made relatively clear that he’s the “cavalry” sent by Elrond to renew the Alliance between elves and men. I wasn’t aware that the actual leader was a representative of Galadriel; that makes it even more interesting, since it’s a contingent from all the elves, instead of just Elrond’s team.
Halidir delivers a message from Lord Elrond. But Halidir is like chief of security for Lothlorien.
I have seen part of a deleted scene that is Elrond in Lothlorien asking Celeborn to send their archers to aid at Helm’s Deep. I hope it is in the extended edition because it answers more than one question.
Those weren’t orcs. They were Urukai and, as Aragorn said, they were bred for one purpose, the destruction of Man. Gandolf pointed out in FoTR that they were bred to cover distance at speed, in daylight, and didn’t need the same things that a regular army did. In the group that had Merry and Pippin, it was the orcs that demanded a stop for food and rest after three days. The Urukai among them were still rearing to go.
In the book, after Sam and Frodo are captured by the Southern Rangers, and Faramir is questioning them as to their purpose, Sam tells off Faramir, to the amusement of his men. Faramir replies, “Were I as hasty as you, I might have slain you long ago. For I am commanded to slay all whom I find in this land without the leave of the Lord of Gondor.”
If not a law, it sounds like part of his standing orders. When Denethor finds out that Faramir could have brought the Ring to Gondor, but did not, he is enraged to the point of sending his remaining son out to certain death as the attack on Gondor commences. We shall see if this survives in the third movie.
I had the same impression. I think it gave the whole Treebeard storyline more of a fairy-tale feeling that was in stark contrast to the grittier, more lifelike animation of Gollum. I don’t know if it was done for that reason–the Ents are described in the book as not being able to bend very much, so you would expect stiff-looking motion from them. Intentional or not, I love the way it turned out. Both Gollum and Treebeard were great!
If I were going to criticize any of the creatures, it would be the wargs. They just didn’t look quite right to me.
Arden Ranger’s answer about Uruk-hai is a good one. But also, there’s almost no indication of the passage of time in the movie. As far as the film shows, the entire sequence from leaving the city (I’m really bad at remembering Tolkien names) to the battle at Helm’s Deep could’ve been 2 days. The only indication otherwise is when Aragorn remember’s Gandalf’s message to look to the east on the 4th (5th?) day – I actually found that kind of jarring, because the movie didn’t convey that that much time had passed. My point is: there’s nothing in the movie that says they didn’t stop for rest and food on the way to Helm’s Deep.
Yeah, I’m starting to warm up to the way the movie handled it. The reason it bugged me so much at first was that I felt it cheapened Faramir’s character. If he looks like his brother, and acts just like his brother, why even bother having two separate characters?
But I think they kept the basic dynamic from the book – that it was Boromir’s ambition and desire for power that won their father’s favor, and Faramir’s integrity that made him lose favor – but just made it much more subtle. Instead of rejecting the ring outright, Faramir is tempted by it, but not for himself. It’s key that he wants to present the ring as a gift to his father, and it’s also key that he knows what he’ll be sacrificing by letting Frodo & Sam go free. I just hope they do a better job of presenting that whole subplot in the third movie. And I still don’t agree that it would’ve cheapened the power of the ring to have Faramir reject it outright in the movie.
One other question: Does the book present Theoden as being “possessed” by Saruman, like the movie does? The impression I got from reading the book was that it was more subtle – Grima was killing the king through bad advice instead of magic like that shown in the movie. Gandalf came in and scared off Grima, but won over the king just by convincing him of Saruman’s deceit. In the movie, of course, it’s shown as an exorcism. Did I just read the book wrong?
Your impression of the Grima/Theoden/Gandalf scene from the book is pretty much right. This is a point that I’ve seen a lot of people in the SDMB threads criticize about TTT, the movie. I actually think that this was a good choice by the filmmakers. The scene in the film version is more dramatic, it makes Theoden more respectable IMO (he was under a spell–he’s not just gullible or weak), it introduces another magical/fantasy element into the movie, and it provides another heroic moment for Gandalf.
The change in Faramir’s character did bother me the first time I saw the movie, but on second viewing, I think it works.
Since the Frodo&Sam part of the plot doesn’t end where it does in the book, Faramir’s temptation and his delayed decision to release them plays a more important part here. In the book, it’s just an episode in their journey, a way to introduce the character of Faramir; in the film, it’s a key climactic point. I also think it has more dramatic impact to drag Faramir’s temptation out. The scene as it plays in the book–“So the Ring is in my grasp! A chance to show my quality… Okay, you can go.”–would fall rather flat on screen.
Many of the other points I didn’t like at first–the Arwen flashbacks, Merry and Pippin getting so little to do–also sat better with me at the second viewing. The only thing that really still troubles me is Frodo showing the Ring to the Black Rider. It makes another good climactic point on screen, but doesn’t this mean that Sauron now knows right where the Ring is? And how will that affect the upcoming scene where Pippin looks into the palantir, leading Sauron to think that Saruman has the hobbit and Ring at Isenguard? Or is that going to be changed?
The additional bit that interested me, that I don’t think anyone else has mentioned yet, is that Frodo not only pities Gollum, but is interested in his redemption–and not, it is suggested, for entirely unselfish reasons. He doesn’t say it out loud, but you can kind of see where this is going: Frodo saw that Bilbo was becoming Gollum-like under the Ring’s influence and knows that it’s happening to him as well.
It makes me wonder if we’re going to see Frodo go all Gollumy at the Cracks of Doom in the next movie.
I forgot to mention: I knew that Shelob was not going to be in this film, but I was surprised that the scene where Gandalf confronts Saruman in his tower (which is one of my favorites in the book) and the above scene with Pippin did not appear.
