UK football, season 2008/09, forecasts

In theory, none. In practice, EPL refs are far, far more tolerant. They don’t call fouls for defenders manhandling players, very, very rarely send players off (often a yellow and a “final warning”, where in another league they’d just get sent off). Much more tolerant of fouls in the penalty area too. It’s an old saw that many tackles in the penalty area would be fouls in the middle of the pitch, but aren’t given as penalties. It’s much less true in other leagues.

So yea, in general just more tolerant of fouling. Obviously, this is favorable to a defending team.

Serie A red cards to this point: 22

Premier League red cards to this point: 23
Again, we cry bullshit.
Oh, and Serie A goals per game to date: 2.49

EPL goals per game to date: 2.53
Good thing that Serie A has such strong enforcement of the rules, compared to jolly old England’s bumbling men in black. :rolleyes:
Not liking drawn games? Another American trait. :wink: (We call them “ties” by the way, and invent all sorts of creative ways to ensure they never happen, if possible).

I’m amazed there are so many. Just goes to show how many violent (or so stupid they don’t know what a violent tackle is) players there are in the EPL, I guess.

Go look at some red cards from each league, and try say with a straight face they’re for the same sort of offenses. Players in Serie A/La Liga get sent off for tripping someone, you have to try break someones leg to get sent off in the EPL.

The goals bit is interesting. I suspected the EPL was becoming Serie A without the tactics, seems that’s about right.

Disliking draws has nothing to do with Americans, obviously.

Please give your assessment of every other team in the Premiership relative to ‘very mediocre’.

Further to my embarrassing confession concerning United upthread, things have taken a turn for the worse. I have now converted my shed into a place of worship. It’s called ‘The Church of The Holy St. Alex of Trafford’. I’m hoping St. Alex himself will find time to come down and consecrate the building, but I’ve also written to the Pope to ascertain his availability for such occasions.

For architectural verisimilitude, I have borrowed a cone from some nearby roadworks and stuck it on top of the church roof. This will have to do until I can find a second-hand steeple. Inside, the tools have been moved to the walls to accommodate a rudimentary nave, where stands an icon of St. Alex holding a hairdryer aloft and pointing upwards in the general direction of God.

Think B&Q with a gothic cathedral plonked in the middle and you won’t go far wrong.

By the standards of top clubs in general, and the last few seasons for the “big 4”. All the “big 4” have seen far better days. Well, except Liverpool, they’re consistently mediocre as usual. Chelsea are drastically worse than when they won the title, United are far more impotent than last season (not surprising, Ronaldo was never going to repeat that season). Needless to say Arsenal are not exactly The Invincibles anymore.

Steven Gerrard assaults a player, and doesn’t even get a yellow.

Yep.

It’s not “packing back,” it’s not sticking ten men behind the ball, and it’s not playing for the draw. No argument from me that we’ve struggled to break teams down, and that some of that is a seeming mistrust from Rafa in his creative players, but it’s not what you’re talking about (except when you decide to lump everything that bores you into one category, which is the real problem here). Our problem is difficulty scoring despite dominating both possession and territory.

Fulham are six points from the drop. West Ham have just gone on a great run that has hauled them away from it; when they played us they were right in the mix. Everton may not be in danger of relegation, but they sure as hell “packed back”. And now Wigan and Stoke have earned draws against us on the road. Hard to argue this is a stupid tactic, really; seems quite productive to me.

Seen Hull’s form lately? They’re still in serious danger of relegation. And how are West Brom faring with their relatively free-flowing style? It’s won them the occasional (slightly patronising) plaudit, but it hasn’t got them a great many points. I repeat; clubs at the bottom end can’t seriously bank on taking three (or four, or fifty) points off the big clubs except by sitting back and hoping to snatch a goal on the break. As you seem to acknowledge, you’ll have to pretty much eliminate the reward for a draw if you want to stop teams playing for them.

Well, I tell you what; let’s have a tournament of some sort, we’ll get the best players in the world there. You can have a chat with Sepp Blatter, and he’ll make sure that all the refs know he wants defenders sent off for breathing heavily on attackers. “We must protect the creative players,” he’ll say, or something like that. Let’s have the referees target sending off an average of almost two players a match.

Oh, hey; we already did that, and we called it the “2006 World Cup.” And yeah, we got creativity up the wazoo. The sheer breadth of diving talent was absolutely nonpareil. When the top players realised all they had to do was fall over in the vicinity of a defender to get him booked, they had a field day. Funny, it turns out it’s not as simple as doling out cards like candy, just as it turns out you can’t legislate more goals by futzing with the points system.

So when you think there aren’t enough cards, it’s because our refs are too lenient, and when you find out there are exactly as many as elsewhere, it’s because our players are too violent? Hmm. Confirmation bias, anyone?

Hey, and how about that ref in La Liga who sent off a player for diving, when both incidents were cast-iron penalties? More of that sort of thing, yes yes. Mike Riley trying his best to compete, though, with two preposterous bookings for Cole and Mascherano.

Mike Riley may actually be Spanish, that is a hilariously bad red card.

Blimey, he actually got one right, and a yellow card for diving to boot. Wonders may never cease.

Haha, DSYoung picked a pretty poor time to defend English refereeing.

Was that the worst refereed game in modern times? Gerrard assaults Bosingwa and gets nothing, Alonso kicks Lampard and Lampard gets sent off, Bosingwa assaults somebodyiforgot right in front of the linesman and nothing happens. Comical. At least Gerrard got booked for diving. Though if you listen to morons like Blatter that was probably a mistake too.

A few random questions

Is Gerrard the biggest diver in English football?

Is Dirk Kuyt or Ryan Babel the worst Dutch player in Liverpool’s squad?

Is Florent Malouda a footballer?

Yeah, because defending the broader refereeing policy is the same as defending individuals, right? Mike Riley is a fucking awful referee; always has been, always will be. No argument here. But you didn’t start out arguing that English referees were shit; you were arguing that they don’t give out enough cards, which is quite a different thing.

I never said it was ten behind the ball or whatever. I said it was negative. Which it is. He doesn’t trust his creative players because he doesn’t want to lose at any cost.

It’s not a stupid tactic against Liverpool, because Liverpool are negative and have two good attacking players in their squad. It’s a stupid tactic against Arsenal/United/Barca/Madrid/anyclubwithattackingflair. I didn’t say Everton didn’t pack the back, I said they aren’t getting relegated.

So are about 10 other clubs, what’s your point? You yourself said it’s a competition between the relegation candidates to get points and avoid relegation, Hull are winning that competition.

Their form has more to do with losing to poor teams than what style they play against the top teams anyway.

Again, I don’t have a problem with teams playing on the break, but most teams that go to OT/Emirates/whatever don’t attack ever. They play for 1 point, and 1 point only.

[quote]

Well, I tell you what; let’s have a tournament of some sort, we’ll get the best players in the world there. You can have a chat with Sepp Blatter, and he’ll make sure that all the refs know he wants defenders sent off for breathing heavily on attackers. “We must protect the creative players,” he’ll say, or something like that. Let’s have the referees target sending off an average of almost two players a match.

Oh, hey; we already did that, and we called it the “2006 World Cup.” And yeah, we got creativity up the wazoo. The sheer breadth of diving talent was absolutely nonpareil. When the top players realised all they had to do was fall over in the vicinity of a defender to get him booked, they had a field day. Funny, it turns out it’s not as simple as doling out cards like candy, just as it turns out you can’t legislate more goals by futzing with the points system.

[quote]

I didn’t say hand cards out like candy, I said hand out cards for fouls. It’s not difficult, most leagues manage it you know.

If you think La Lagi or Serie A is as aggressive, or involves as many fouls as the EPL, you’re on drugs.

When did I defend bad refs? I never said refs should default to handing out cards or something, I’d just like to see cards for blatant fouls and violence. Like Gerrard kicking Bosingwa.

Don’t recall the card for Mascherano, but he almost certainly deserved it, being one of the dirtiest players around.

Sorry, I thought the implication was obvious. They don’t apply the rules, so they’re shit. There you go. If the EPL wants to play with a different rulebook that allows Wayne Rooney to say “fuck you” to a ref and not get sent off, that’s fine.

Should I give examples every game? Obviously I don’t need to for this game, but I can in future if you’d like. There are usually over 5 fouls that should’ve been cards per game in the EPL, so it should be pretty easy.

ETA: Man, been watching that Bosingwa kick on Benayoun again. We can surely agree that’s one of the most farcical decisions in a long, long, long time :stuck_out_tongue:

Wasn’t there one incident where a player kicked the ball to one of the opp, it hit him on the leg, player clutches face and drops to ground rolling in agony.

Ref gives red to guy that first kicked the ball.

Sorry but I forget the teams involved

Yeah, at the moment. God knows how many points will get you safety this season, though, and it’s hard to know where Hull’s next point is coming from.

Yeah, ours included. Except when you found out we’ve handed out as many cards as Serie A this season, it was suddenly proof that our players are violent. Goalposts are constantly shifting.

More of the sort of considered, evidence-based analysis we’ve all come to expect. :slight_smile:

The point is that you’re deliberately conflating “shit” as in “this person/organisation does not apply my precise interpretation of the rules”, and “shit” as in “couldn’t spot a player kicking someone in the back at ten paces”. I disagree with your apparent desire to see every match end with three players, all rolling around on the floor and crying, but at least I acknowledge that there’s room for debate, and even (horror!) differences of opinion and practice between different leagues. You, on the other hand, seem to believe that everything you dislike is down to incompetence. And moreover, you’re using examples of pure incompetence to try and bolster your argument about interpretation. They are different issues.

You can go through every match picking out what you think are dodgy decisions if you like; there’s always a few, that’s the nature of having non-reviewable calls made by humans. You won’t prove that more protection/anality (delete as appropriate) won’t result in precisely what we had at the last World Cup, i.e. the Greg Louganis Testimonial Bonanza.

He of the face-clutching was Rivaldo, incidentally, and he got Hakan Unsal sent off for Turkey.

It’s not shifting goalposts, I’ve always thought it’s the most violent league. Not sure how it’s even debatable. It’s a very physical league, with lots of violence, not sure how anyone can disagree with that? Hell, it’s kind of its selling point…

With identical rule interpretation everywhere, a more physical league should result in more fouls and cards, obviously. That the EPL does not is pretty clear evidence that they are far more lenient.

If, miraculously, that player got a card he didn’t deserve, consider it payback for all his waving of imaginary cards at referees that never gets punished. I know you heart Liverpool, but Mascherano is a dirty player. If you seriously need evidence for that statement you should just watch your team some more.

If a ref gets told to fuck off, and he doesn’t punish the player, is he incompetent or is his interpretation insane? Because it’s pretty clearly stated in the rules that it’s a sending off offense. The line between poor interpretation of the rules and outright incompetency can be murky.

Yes, I’m probably accidentally conflating shit refs with IMO stupid interpretations of rules at times. I’m tired and generally too lazy to proofread posts too much, sue me :stuck_out_tongue:

Good thing I never proposed they repeat that. Wanting refs to interpret the rules as they are quite obviously written does not mean wanting farces like those in that World Cup. I don’t mind being more/less lenient, I mind blatant violent conduct not getting punished, and thugs like Wayne Rooney not getting sent off once. Would be nice if diving was punished more, but at least there’s a reasonable reason to be more careful with that. Would be nice if they were as careful giving Stevie Me penalties as they were giving him cards for diving, but I guess since he’s English that won’t happen.

Just got off a 'plane to San Fran. GREAT result for Villa. 5 points clear of the Arse, level on points with Chelski. And I am glad to see that the title is not decided already, though I still think United will win.

The trouble with saying that someone should be sent of for an “obvious” violation of the rules is that obvious violations of the rules happen every game, every league, all the time. How often is there a picture of an attacking and defending player, both going for the ball, one with his hand on the other’s shorts, while the other has a fistful of the first player’s jersey? Push, pull, jump at, kick, trip, etc. happen all the time. Fortunately for the game, or maybe unfortunately, no league enforces the rules as written.

As a teacher, I am well aware that the broader goal of managing the situation is what controls what one does in the way of “enforcement.” I, too, have the ability to “send off” a “player” (student) for telling me to “fuck off.” Depending on the situation, I might well do that. But if I can get the student to realize that’s not acceptable, without sending him off to the principal’s office, where he will be written up and suspended, thus missing school, isn’t that preferable? After all, the goal isn’t to enforce rules. The goal is to have a good game (in my case, by educating all my students as much as possible).

Different leagues have different flavors of play. This has always been the case, and always, God willing, will be. It should not be the case that we see the same soccer in Argentina that we see in Italy that we see in England. That’s part of what makes the World Cup so interesting: we get to see the clash of styles and wonder which style of play will win the day. But since EVERY league is having to decide exactly what level of tolerance it will have for activity on the field that violates the Laws, the bar will be different from league to league.

It’s been known for decades that the English game is a more physical game. This doesn’t translate to a more negative game, if you measure that by goals scored. As my statistic quoted last time shows, the Italian and English games are scoring at roughly the same rate this year; indeed, the English teams are managing slightly more goals per game. Are there times when we see obvious fouls go unpunished? Yes. But in Serie A, there are times when people are punished for having done nothing. Which is preferable? I know which I prefer, which is why you see much less diving and rolling around in the EPL than you do elsewhere. Hell, even Ronaldo has learned the lesson there.

I don’t mean to make you think I’m rubbishing your underlying desire. I recognize that you want two things: you want to see “beautiful” soccer, soccer like it was when the Hungarians were playing it in the 50s, or like the Brazilian teams of Pele played. You also dislike drawn games. That latter dislike is a trait you share with the overwhelming majority of American sports fans (which is why I think Americans are generally idiots when it comes to sports). In answer to your two valid themes I say these two things: first, don’t conflate these legitimate desires with what appears to be a tendency to engage in loose thinking to trash what you don’t like, and second, consider that soccer was always MEANT to have both drawn games, and defensive play. The better process for enjoyment may be to learn to appreciate both, as they happen.

After all, in the end, the point to the league is to do the best you can, not to score a lot of goals, or play beautiful soccer. :wink:

<sigh> Enjoy God’s country. :slight_smile: :cool:
I, too, am pulling for Villa. After all, that’s an American between the pipes. :smiley:

You see, when you claim physical = violence, you lose me. It’s a much more physical league than Serie A/La Liga, but I would argue less violent (though I watch much less Italian and Spanish footy than I used to). You can be physical without being violent, and there seem to be less genuinely brutal tackles in the Premier League than in the major European ones - defining brutal as “attempt to shatter bones in the legs.” When I watched all three regularly, studs up challenges were WAY more accepted in Europe.