Unsolicited and Crazy Parenting Advice

The BBQ Pit
81

We’ve done it before - and intellectually, I agree with you.

But mentioning breastfeeding to a woman holding a baby with a bottle is like a stranger telling a woman outside an abortion clinic that she shouldn’t abort her baby. Its presumptive, its rude, its invasive, its hurtful.

And its only slightly less so if the woman in question is pregnant.

As a theoretical discussion, its one we should have. As an education initiative, I think we’ve done an excellent job - I can’t think of a single pregnancy manual that doesn’t praise breastfeeding. We still have work to do - but BOTH directions - in hospitals - both in supporting breastfeeding choice - and taking quicker action to avoid breastfeeding complications (but this is simply because I seem to be the outlier on breastfeeding jaundice experiences).

As a personal choice its no one’s damn business but the person who owns the breasts.

82

Maybe AT was thinking her MIL meant to put the baby on the dryer and leave it there. In which case I could understand her reluctance to try it!

83

But why should a woman’s self-esteem A) be tied into her milk production more than her insulin production and B) be more important than giving her child normal nutrition? And why should they fool themselves into feeling good about something that isn’t? It’s not that I want women to feel bad, I want them to feel realistic. No one would get away with telling us McDonald’s is good enough nutrition for every night if we don’t feel like cooking dinner. Yet we accept that doing the same thing to infants is okay.

If breastfeeding was seen as normal, then maybe we could pressure hospitals to increase milk banks for babies of women who can’t lactate (for whatever reason), and insurance companies to cover breastmilk and breastpump supplies. Maybe there would be more demand for breastpumping rooms and freezers in places of employment so working mothers don’t have to pump at their desk or in the bathroom. Maybe there would be some increase (like, ANY) research into medications to increase lactation, so we wouldn’t have to order reflux pills from New Zealand. Maybe it would be treated by the medical establishment like any other health problem, instead of waved away as inconsequential.

Dangerosa, I agree with you, and this is NOT a conversation I have with a bottle holding mom, believe me. I have, as has been said, no idea what medical struggles or birth facts may have affected your decision, and so it would be incredibly rude and presumptuous of me to give, as the OP says, unsolicited advice. And our current culture is so screwed up on this issue I can’t blame anyone for choosing to formula feed, really - they’ve been told time and time again that it really doesn’t matter, so who could blame them? But the “nazi” comments in here really pushed my buttons. Breastfeeding advocates are *not *nazis, we just feel like we’re being dismissed about something that’s not - or shouldn’t be - a choice like what color you paint the nursery or which car seat you buy. EVERY baby should have access to breastmilk, whether it comes from his mother or a donor, because breastmilk is what babies eat.

The problem with the praising breastfeeding tactic is, again, it makes what should be normal into something praiseworthy, and therefore difficult. Think about it. We don’t praise parents for making sure their kids have coats on in freezing weather. We don’t praise parents for buying school supplies or sending lunch to school. We simply tell them, “this is what has to be done.” This is what is normal and expected, and if you can’t do it, we have resources to help you do it, because it’s just that basic. IM(not so)HO, breastmilk is just that basic.

84

I beg to differ. The LLL group that told me I shouldn’t adopt because “I’d never be a real mother.” My child would “be diseased” and “have learning disabilities” because I couldn’t breasfeed them may not have been literal Nazis, but I can’t think of a better word for those fucking bitches.

85

:smack:Like any kid who’s up for adoption is going to be getting much breastmilk.

On behalf of everyone who was bottlefed and turned out fine, I hope you told them where to stuff their ‘advice’.

86

“Shouldn’t adopt” and “Never be a real mother” would make them stupid assholes, for sure.

If they told you your child would undoubtedly suffer more disease and certainly have learning disabilities, they were just plain wrong. If they said a formula fed child was more *likely *to have more disease and more *likely *to have learning disabilities, then they were right. Not telling you what you wanted to hear, but factually correct.

And, just to counter-anecdote, I may be the only woman to bring a bottle into a LLL meeting and live to tell the tale, but they were all very gracious and sweet and offered me lots of information, lots of kudos for pumping as much as I could, and no judgement at all.

Some people are just assholes. I’m sorry you found them. And I’m even more sorry that their actions soured you against a fantastic organization as a whole. It’s kinda like having Diogenes on your side in a GD thread, eh?

87

I wish I had. I ran out in tears. While my self esteem shouldn’t have been tied to breastfeeding, three years of infertility treatments and having a baby living halfway across the world had me on my emotional ropes about the whole thing.

88

Baby Does The Evil Look

You’ve got to start early with this one!

89

I should have clarified, yes thats exactly what she meant.

90

In an attempt to re-hijack the thread, I’ll give some bad advice examples.

I raised 3 kids to their late teens and beyond, and got my share of doozies.

In-law and parent advice/bad behavior stopped as soon as the kids started talking and could rat them out. My MIL was going to take my kids to the playground so that I could get dinner ready. Not spoiling their appetite was mentioned and she assured me that they’d just go to the swings. As soon as they got home my 5-year-old announced that they had just gotten ice cream cones. MIL turned bright red and that was the end of that. She also thought it was cute that my oldest drank non-dairy creamer straight from the little cup. I thought it was digusting.

Oddest situation - I went into a nurse’s office to get a rabies titer drawn when my daughter was 1 month old. She fell asleep in the car and I carried her into the office in her little sleeper/carrying thingy. I placed the carrier down with the sleeping infant inside it. She proceeded to sleep the entire time I was in there. The nurse took my blood, looked down at her and said, “She’d do much better on soy formula.”

Spookiest - I was in an airplane when one of my kids was 18 months old. She began crying on the descent. The concerned stewardess came up offering a piece of HARD CANDY :eek:and suggested we give it to her so that she could suck on it.

We said no thanks, and that hard candy was a choking hazard. The stewardess glared at us and said that she was just trying to help.

91

But why wouldn’t our self esteem be tied to our breasts? They are are most obvious sex characteristic. They are weighted with thousands of years of cultural associations from neolithic pagan fertility icons to the madonna and beyond. Women have breast augmentation or reduction to suit their physical and emotional needs. There are threads here constantly about bra size, cup size, what weight loss or gain or pregnancy does to breasts (complete with the annoying male contribution of “cite?” which was funny the first time and not afterwards, IMO). I can’t see how breasts and their appearance and/or function can’t be tied to self esteem. Women who struggle with BF do feel “lesser” or perhaps resent the attempts at making them feel so.

I don’t look at it your way. I see two options (3, really):

Breast feed exclusively. If you want to and can, more power to you. Go you.

Bottle feed exclusively. If you want to and can (afford to), more power to you. Go you.

BF with a mix of bottle when needed–this to me is the ideal. There is always going to be that one weird scenario where your breasts and that baby are not together when they need to be. Sure you can freeze breastmilk, but to me, unless it’s coming out of your nipple, it’s still bottle fed (so I guess we need to differentiate between bottle and formula). I see nothing wrong with this at all–go you.

Most hospitals now have lactation consultants on staff. Most pediatricians encourage BF (I hope–mine did). But most health practitioners also realize that commitment to any exclusive method can lead to frustration and difficulties (especially if you change your mind re bottle and want to try breast once kidlet is say 6 months old!). Frankly, there is enough guilt and worry swirling around new motherhood for me to concern myself that Baby is getting formula twice a week or whatever.

I’m sure you have studies to back up the claims of lower IQ etc, but given that entire generations of people were raised on formula, I just can’t worry about it. I would worry more about a mom who was propping a bottle, not interacting with her baby and not providing the physical contact they need. IOW, there are so many factors that go into creating people–it almost has to be left up to the individual to make that choice. Juvenile diabetes tends to be a genetic disorder, not one of diet, like adult onset, so I’m a bit :dubious: about that one.

What might help some women is more support after about the first 2 months or so. Workplaces are not supportive of BF–not even nursing (how ironic!). Modern life is not conducive to BF. I don’t know the answer, but I think it might lie there somewhere. Would it be nice if BF were the default and bottle was the outlier? Sure. But we’re not there yet (we haven’t gotten society to fully accept nursing mothers in public–we’ve got some ways to go). But I don’t see a way to commit to exclusive breast and work FT at this point. I just don’t. It’d be nice (if that’s your choice, of course).

I know I wouldn’t have stuck with nursing my third if I hadn’t had a friend who was also nursing and an old hand at it*. She truly mentored me, but even then I quit when he was 7 months old. He was my sickest baby, by far–croup, RSV, upper respiratory illnesses like crazy. My first I tried hard, but gave up (no support and sick with hypothyroid). My second was 22 inches long and 10 lbs, 4oz at birth–just holding him was difficult. He got Carnation Good Start, is an honor student and turned out rather handsome. My first got a merit scholarship to college and is quite pretty as well. My third, the BF one, is average in school, but cute as hell.

Bottom line: who the hells knows? I’m not sure it matters…

*I’m sorry, but LLL needs to do something about its public image and the people it picks to represent it. The LLL lady who visited me with my first scared me and was very critical of formula. She was never about how can we solve this problem; she was all about breast is best forever! and Take back the breast! She turned me off and I never went back. IMO that’s where breast nazi comes from. People tend to resent and remember harsh criticism when they are most vulnerable. I’m glad you had a better experience because honestly, yours is the first positive experience with them I’ve heard about!

[/hijack]
I’ve decided that airline stewardesses (I refuse to call them flight attendants) hate all women traveling with small children, but love young dads who do so. I can’t tell you the times I’ve gotten a Look from them as we enter the plane–and my kids were good. One trip out of who knows how many, the baby cried on landing. that was it. go figure.

92

My favorite anecdotes date back to when my son (my firstborn) was a wee one. Once on a cold winter day, I went into a shop with him in my arms and put back his hood since it was steamy warm inside. An older lady waiting in line with me complimented me on how adorable he was (true!) and then pulled his hood up – so important that he not catch a chill! Um, excuse me, see that adult woman-shaped accessory around the adorable baby? How about we leave the hood decisions to her?

The ultimate in jaw-droppingly bad advice, and what started me realizing how full of crap most people who chime in with their opinion without waiting to see if it’s wanted are, came from my father-in-law. He and my MIL came by when my son was 9 days old, and he told me that I shouldn’t go to the baby right away whenever he cried, as that would only encourage him to manipulate us . No, he should learn that we would come to him when we were good and ready. :rolleyes:

The other highlight from him was the suggestion that before a long plane trip, we should put him to bed extra late and get him up extra early, so that he’d be so tired he’s sleep the whole way. By that point, I already knew that overtired little ones sleep less well, so that tip got my most neutral ‘Hmmm’ in response.

93

I don’t mean her self-esteem is tied to how her breasts look. I mean a mother’s self-esteem is tied to what she can give her child. If breastfeeding is normal, fine. I actually agree with you. But if women who have issues like mine or tried so hard to breastfeed are told that what we are doing for our child is subpar, that affects the self-esteem. Especially when often it’s not about laziness or vanity as people assume.

While discussing the bfing issue with a woman online, I explained my situation. She expressed dismay that someone who needs medication and cannot bf would even try to have children and suggested that I not try to have anymore. Her exact quote was “If it’s too much trouble for you to feed your children the way they are meant to be fed, why are you bothering to have children at all?” I remember it word for word, it’s etched in my brain. It’s this kind of activism that creates more problems than solutions, and I understand the frustrations of people like you, Whynot. I think if all the things you outlined were to happen, it would be great. I think women should be empowered to bf and I don’t understand people who get so bent out of shape about maybe seeing women’s breasts in the meantime. I do think it’s unfortunate that women’s breasts have been hijacked the way they have, to the point where their original function is now seen as interfering with the secondary. If I wasn’t forced to preclude breastfeeing for the sake of Leo having a stable, functioning mother, I would be one of you. But now, I’ve seen it from the other side. I know how hurtful it is to be reminded continuously that what you are giving your child is subpar. And now that’s a trigger for me.

I understand that not hurting a mother’s feelings is not your concern. Education is. I get that. It’s just that, barring a very unusual situation, a woman can prevent her children eating McDonald’s everyday. A woman cannot always prevent the myriad of circumstances that force her to stop breastfeeding. I just think that there has to be a middle ground somewhere.

94

I don’t understand how not being able to feed your child, the child you bore for 9 months, could NOT negatively effect your self esteem. If anything, it’s one of the most basic drives–survival of your young–that is hampered. Thank god we live in a time of decent formula.
Back in the day, children were wet-nursed and not all wet-nurses were well, Mary Poppins. (add to that they were most likely lower class and therefore probably malnourished to boot). If I had to choose between a laudanum imbibing wet nurse and Carnation Good Start, there is no contest. Kayo syrup formulas did not meet the nutritional needs of an infant, nor did the sweetened condensed milk ones, but those who did survive on them seem to have done all right. How will we ever know if whether they were breastfed they would have done better in school? Couldn’t the rise in IQ in BF infants be due to the fact that most BFing moms in this country tend to be of a higher SES and are more likely to invest more time and attention to exposing their kid to language, art, music etc?

You can’t go back and say, definitively, that this choice or that one caused this condition or that one. Not with something as broad as infant nutrition. There are so many factors to account for–genetics, environment, exposure to disease, genetic predispositions to illness, choices made by the parents, and blind luck. I think we can all say that BF is the best option for human babies, but that if BF is not available, other options are not equivalent to Happy Meals or high fructose corn syrup.

95

There is an interesting recent study that shows that the link between breastfeeding and IQ is not due solely to breastfeeding. There is a genetic component there as well. If babies lack a certain gene, breasfeeding will not help raise their IQ. If they do have the gene, breastfed babies tend to have an IQ about 7 points higher than non-breastfed babies.

“Children who do not carry the ‘helpful’ genetic variant have normal average IQ scores,” Kim-Cohen said. “Being breastfed for them is not associated with an IQ advantage.”

I just thought that was interesting. I have also seen studies that show the more educated a woman is, the more likely she is to breastfeed, and I am sure that has an impact as well.

Of course there are other advantages to breastfeeding, such as disease immunity, bonding, etc. as well as benefits to the mother like decreased risk of cancer and helping with weight loss. But formulas are getting better and better as time goes on, and studies also suggest that in animals, adding DHA and AA in supplements (as formulas usually do now) does have a positive impact on learning ability. So I think formula is not really the nutritional equivalent of junk food - nowadays it is a very good alternative.

I am all for breastfeeding, I breastfed both of my children. My first son for a year and my second for 7 months (he now is on formula). I would encourage education for pregnant women and support them in their endeavors, but I also know, as a working parent, that there are times when breastfeeding is more than just inconvenient, it can take over your life to the detriment of other things. I am sure LLL would have told me not to give it up so soon, that I could continue to pump 3x a day in a bathroom stall, etc. I admit to stopping pretty much due to my own preferences and convenience, but I do not feel shame about it. I am proud that I did it as long as I did, and I got plenty of comments both ways - for and against, and all I would really tell women who are asking for advice is to educate yourself and your partner, get the support you need, make a decision that works the best for you and your baby, and then don’t worry about it or feel guilty about it any more.

96

Maybe something is wrong with me, because I don’t get this. When people make reassuring comments like this, I believe they are trying to be…reassuring. Comforting, even. Supporting you in your time of anxiety.

Besides, isn’t that what half this thread (and so many others) is about? “Here’s my experience.” " OOOh, I had a similar experience. Here’s how it turned out."

My MIL told me I shouldn’t breastfeed, that it was dirty and animal-like. I ignored that.

97

Our mothers must be related. I was fed the same thing. 1968 baby here.

I never breast fed and my children were off straight formula by the time my son was 6 months and my daughter 8 months. They drank plain whole milk. I also gave them table food sans any seasonings blended in a blender. Mashed taters, green beans, peas, creamed corn. I gave them pudding snack packs, fruit snack packs and mashed up fresh bananas.

I gave them popsicles when they were teething and let them chew on pretzel rods with most of the salt removed instead of buying those expensive toddler teething pops and biscuits.

I used cheap disposable diapers and the cloth ones I did have were used as burb rags and later dusting cloths.

I also let them get dirty now and then.:eek:

I followed some advice but I mainly did my own thing. They are alive and well at 20 and 18 years of age.

98

A friend of mine was able to produce so much milk that she was catching it from the breast not in use by her baby and giving it to the hospital where they would feed it to the premature babes.

One of the points to me about breastfeeding is the position where you are feeding the baby - the child is looking up at you and gaining a persepective - getting a reference on things - so I think it’s important to feed the baby in this position with the bottle too. I feel sad to see little babies with their bottle propped up on a pillow and in effect feeding themselves.

99

How does one prop a bottle? It slides off or the baby knocks it or something happens. I am a bit weary of bottle feeds being equated with baby being left alone to their own devices. I held all my babies when it was feeding time. There are plenty of nursing moms who are riveted by Oprah and not paying one bit of attention to Jr suckling away… This is not directed to any one poster here, so please don’t take offense.

I suppose what bothers me most is that it’s 2008 and we are still carping at one another over this issue. Do what you feel is best for your baby and let others do the same. Unless you are reconstituting the formula incorrectly or subsisting on Cheetos and RC Cola, you are providing adequate nutrition for your child. I’m a fan of good enough parenting. YMMV.

100

It’s a class issue. Poor women breastfed their babies because they didn’t have any choice. Wealthier women, who had choices, hired wet nurses because breastfeeding was “low class.” (This is an IIRC situation; I don’t have a cite.)

Similarly, now it’s largely (kindly note modifier) wealthier women who have the option to breastfeed, because they can take time off their jobs during the day to do so, because they have jobs that provide maternity leave, or because they don’t have to work in the first place (obviously, this last doesn’t apply to single mothers; and these are not all the possible variables). Poorer women don’t generally have these choices, which limits their ability to breastfeed (or pump).

Anyway. I don’t have any parenting advice stories, because I’m not a parent. I generally stay out of my friends’ parenting choices, although I saw enough examples of bad (and good!) parenting when I worked at a major amusement park that I tell people I don’t need to have children.

I’m trying to remember any bad parenting advice stories I heard from my mother - I must have, because those are the sorts of stories she likes to share with me - but nothing’s coming to mind.