I am talking about the building up onto this specific behaviour in this specific invasion and how it reflects similar behaviour in similar situations in the past.
What I don’t say is that this specific behaviour is the same as was shown in Vietnam. Yout what is worrying (or should be worrying) is that there certainly is indication of a tendency to erode into the even much worse behaviour in Vietnam.
As for the demonizing/dehuminizing of “the other”. That is a tactic as old as humanity.
Yet we are not talking about general tactics of war and how to get (and keep) your soldiers going. We talk about the US army in Iraq and to a certain extend also the Britsh army in Iraq.
And if you like to hear my opinion: I think the US army is at this point in time and in gneral much more brainwashed into dehuminizing “the other” and in thinking they are better then the rest of the world, then the British.
Iskander, you’re talking to yourself at this point. Everybody else has been paying attention to the meaning of your words instead of what you claim you actually said.
You are dumb, I was relating to you the consecuences of fighting terrorism using terrorist rules. I am not saying that the U.S. is currently employing those techniques. YOU are the one that is advocating for it’s use.
I merely telling you what will happen if the Americans are dumb enough to fall in that trap. Fortunately, if we use the SDMB as a model, fucking imbeciles like you are a minority to mock, therefore I am not afraid for the U.S.A. for the time being. I will be afraid if I ever find out that idiots like manage to reproduce.
Well, of course. More than expected they are almost required to do so. But the wording is most unfortunately (and maybe the sentiment behind the wording). Calling these acts “kids’ pranks”? Suggesting the prisoners might deserve it? Excuse me, I think mom also needs a good talking to.
When some insurgents kidnapped those Japanese kids and threatened to set them on fire and other fun things we had some dopers that had the galls to claim that Iraqis were slightly less evolved than the rest of humanity (to put it mildly). Some were as far as including all Muslims in their delusional view of the world.
Now that we have seen what some American soldiers, in the name of democracy and freedom are capable of, what do you think the Iraqis will think of American/westerners? I don’t think of Iraqis - or any other nationality - as smarter, in average as SDMB members. The prospect of what this is doing to Iraqi sentiments is scary.
I believe the intent is to equate it to something like fraternity hazing. My sense is that the message that the relative back home received was that no one REALLY got hurt, it was all about what she took to be adolescent dominance games getting a little rough. That’s what you would need to believe (at first) if you learned a beloved family member was involved.
I happen to be the one who referred to you as “the lowest form of life”, so I think I can say with some authority that the description was not based on your “wishing harm on Saddam”, but rather on the entirety of your comments.
Many of us may, or may not wish harm on Saddam. That is not the point, and I suspect that you know it. This is what you said in the original post:
…Saddam was never at this prison. In fact, from memory, he is not even in the country at the moment. So why is it so remarkable that NONE of us wondered if Saddam was under the hood? Maybe because it was impossible? Please enlighten us why you find it remarkable that none of us contemplated impossible events…
Boy I’m glad I’m in the BBQ pit.
Nobody wishes harm on Bush. Nobody here would ever say that they would want bush to be harmed. But they would say they would like to see him be put in the same risk as our soldiers. YOU want saddam to be tortured. To wish torture on someone is unacceptable. PERIOD. NOT CIVILIZED! Don’t even begin to argue that you have some right to think that. You DON’T.
Its very typical of what the republican machine does. You try to equate Bush putting Americans in harms way with Saddam torturing and raping people as some sort of moral equivalency. Bush isn’t that savage, and sending soldiers to war isn’t below the threshold of civilized behavior. The only way you could actually have an argument is if Bush actually ordered the torture of Iraqis. Then you would have your equivalent. Then I would suggest that Bush not be tortured but tried in a court. You know why? Because I am not a fucking idiot! I am not a primordial fool like you are.
I have to stop typing now because such idiocy really hurts my brain.
Take your fucking primitive ass away from these discussions before you reveal anymore of your dirty fucking soul, I don’t want to see any more.
The “sex video” clips seem faked- uniforms are wrong, etc. Those do not seem to be real Allied servicemen. Note also that no 'real" media is claiming they are real.
A few things to note- the very worst of the 'tortures" perpetrated by our servicement would be “time off for good behavior” under Saddam. And, note that we are outraged, we do print the story, and the crimes are being investigated and the guilty will be punished. Under Saddam, they’d be getting a fuckin medal. So- for those of you asking “so what’s the difference between US and Saddan?” That is.
Every army is composed of Humans. Some humans are evil. Some humans are lackeys, and some crack under the strain. These people often do wrong things… As long as there is war- there will be atrocities. The difference is how many commit these acts, and whether or not those acts are condoned or punished when they are brought to light. In our case- the number commiting the acts was small, and the bringing to justice is swift.
Even “legal” and “just” wars have atrocities. All the Allies in WWII commited atrocities also- but we were as kindergarteners compared to the Nazis & Japs.
What does Saddam deserve? A quick painless death for his terrible crimes.
You’re optimistic, here. I’d rather say : “the number committing the acts and stupid enough to pridefully take pictures and send them to friends was small”. I’m not convinced at all that there weren’t any other soldiers or contractors doing the same. I’m not convinced at all either that people they took orders from weren’t involved in what was going on. Finally, I’m not convinced at all that there weren’t various people perfectly aware of what was going on, and who weren’t interested the slighest bit in having the issue investigated.
By the way, who exactly publicized the pictures? How were they released to the press? Does someone know?
The position that Iskander takes here may be a rare animal on this board, but if my co-workers are any indication of general American attitude, his is not a rare opinion.
I have listened to the other employees talk of how “This is nothing compared to SH.” “This is just like a frat hazing.” “They probably deserved it.”
It was only after I pointed out to them how this might affect the effort to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people did some begin to see the possible down side to this latest turn of events. Others have an opinion more along the lines of “We need to just kill all of them and get it the fuck over with.”