[QUOTE=John Mace]
Yes, we need to figure out what to do now in Iraq,
[/QUOTE]
But John, we already know we need to build a shining city on a hill:
Sep 2 radio address
Aug 31 speech
We just have to persevere for a few more years, and Utopia will be ours.
[Aside]
Oh, oh.
Well, even so, good luck to the Red Fury, get those Greeks!
[/Aside]
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Well, if you knew the outcome, of course you would.
[/quote]
And yet some people still think it was a good idea…
Both questions are pertinent. You want to wave away one question simply because there is another pertinent one. I suppose if the US was in unanimous agreement that the war was a bad idea, then the question would be moot. And yes, there are still supports of the war on this board, so it’s not one of those strawman type questions that no one on this board is making.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
As for my Mom, I’ll never forget her lovely scent among many, many other things. She passed away January 20th after an agonizing seven month long bout with colon-cancer. Talk about feeling bitter.
[/QUOTE]
[backwards Seinfeld reference]Well the Jerk Store called and they’re out of you![/bSr]
[QUOTE=RedFury]
As for my Mom, I’ll never forget her lovely scent among many, many other things. She passed away January 20th after an agonizing seven month long bout with colon-cancer. Talk about feeling bitter.
[/QUOTE]
I lost both parents to cancer. I was given no quarter in many threads. Don’t expect any. nature of the beast, and all that. But I will offer my condolences. Seriously.
“From Natchez to Mobile,
From Memphis to St. Joe…” – Johnny Mercer
Red, for the life of me, I can’t figure out why you chose this moment to share this with me. “Yo mamma” references are a staple. I’m acutely embarassed and perplexed as to why I had such a load coming to me. Seriously, companero, WTF?
For the record, my own mom passed about a month ago. It would never have occured to me to mention to anyone here, in any context whatsoever. I don’t get it, pal, I just don’t get it.
I’m inclined to give it the “it never happened” treatment. With your concurrence, of course.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
I don’t get it, pal, I just don’t get it.
[/QUOTE]
It’s possible he didn’t get that “elderberries” is a Monty Python reference.
Didn’t think of that. Hope yer right.
[QUOTE=Frank]
It’s possible he didn’t get that “elderberries” is a Monty Python reference.
[/QUOTE]
Oh dear God. Imagine the meltdown at the first mention of a hamster. We’re all in for it!
I vote to change RedFury’s user name to red retread. He’s always spouting the same old shit in the same rude, confrontational manner.
No, I don’t have to open his threads or read his posts. I stopped doing so months ago. Until tonight, which happens to be an evening I’m finding to be particularly enjoyable. Most of the important stuff, like which teams won today’s college football games, turned out to suit me. I just needed one more little snicker of a laugh to bring this night into the realm of perfection.
Checked out The Dope, and sure enough, this place never fails me. A Red Retread post to complete the evening. 
The retread dude needs to develop some divergent interests or he’s gonna have a stroke. Pretty soon I’m thinkin’.
/to jcom Been sippin’ lemonade and rollin’ that tree?
[QUOTE=Zoe]
“From Natchez to Mobile,
From Memphis to St. Joe…” – Johnny Mercer
[/QUOTE]
I like Bobby Bland’s version of this one the best. It’s one of my all-time favorite tunes. Lemonade, no, not tonight. I gots me a bottle of Maker’s Mark and some Coke-cola. Rolled the tree and got back home at a reasonable hour. Damn fine evenin’!
[QUOTE=RedFury]
John,
In all honesty, I’ve never been able to figure out just what your politics are. On the one hand, as far as I can recall, you were never gong-ho about this whole misadventure – quite the opposite in fact. But then you turn right around and become one of the most fervid Bush apologists on Board. 
Best I can figure, is that I can’t figure Libertarians at all. You guys seem to be all over the place, often contradicting each other – never mind the rest of us.
[/QUOTE]
Here’s the thing. A lot of us who aren’t supportive of Bush still call bullshit when someone spouts out something that we don’t think jives with all the facts. However, around here one gets called an “appologist” unless one falls in line with every accusation hurled at Bush, whether it’s true or not or whether it makes sense or not. Frankly, it’s rather tiresome-- especially when it comes from the local morons . Also, I’m a scientist by training, and I’m used to dealing with facts and going out of my way to avoid my preconceived ideas and personal prejudices. If I can see another hypothesis that explains the facts, then I’m not going to accept claims that “the only reason Bush could be doing this is…”
As for Libertarians (or small “l” libertarians), we’re generally anti-war. Many of us would prefer the US had a lower profile in the world in general, not just on issues related to the M.E.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Red, for the life of me, I can’t figure out why you chose this moment to share this with me. “Yo mamma” references are a staple. I’m acutely embarassed and perplexed as to why I had such a load coming to me. Seriously, companero, WTF?
For the record, my own mom passed about a month ago. It would never have occured to me to mention to anyone here, in any context whatsoever. I don’t get it, pal, I just don’t get it.
I’m inclined to give it the “it never happened” treatment. With your concurrence, of course.
[/QUOTE]
Raw spot for me, 'luc – kneejerk response. Of course you hadn’t known, I don’t believe I’d said anything before. And no, afraid the reference went right over my pate.
Apologies and my condolences to you as well.
duffer,
I do not ask or give any quarter when it comes to this topic. But as I said, just seeing my Mom mentioned brought back some painful memories, that’s all.
Sorry for you losses too.
[QUOTE=GIGObuster]
[Aside]
Oh, oh.
Well, even so, good luck to the Red Fury, get those Greeks!
[/Aside]
[/QUOTE]
Must confess I was more than a bit queasy when I woke at 6 this AM to watch the game. Needless to say, Pau is the heart and soul of our team.
And man-o-man did his teammates step-up for him 2day! Spanked the tar out of Greece by 23 POINTS!
We’re GOLDEN! Pau still got the MVP – deservedly so IMO, for without him there wouldn’t have been a medal match. Good day to be alive.
John Carter of Mars.
I now understand the “Mars” reference in your moniker. Typing with your anus is certainly not a very earthly condition.
Fair enough, John, but I still feel you’ve taken a contrarian POV even when the facts didn’t support you. Neither here nor there at this point.
And yes, that much I knew about libertarians – I often browse the Lew Rockwell site.
[QUOTE=magellan01]
I’m not sure what this means. If it means that given how things have turned out do you wish we could turn back the clock and not have gone? Sure. Absolutely. But is that reallysaying anything at all? Take football: 4th and goal on the one inch line. Your down five, ten seconds left. You call a quarterback sneak, they stop you. KNowing what you know about the outcome, was the play you called a good idea. Statistics would say absolutely. If you had a chance to replay the down would you run a different play. Well, if you knew the outcome, of course you would. But that’s just a lot of mental masturbation. The question that I think is pertinent is: if you had the exact same situation (without a time machine) would you make the same decision again? You make the best decision you can with the information you have. Sometimes you will be right, sometimes you will be wrong. I don’t think we’ve figured out a way around that one yet.
[/quote]
Simply amazing. “The same situation” was pretty much proven to be Bushit then – the amount of debunking that went on at the time was overwhelming and coming from andless ources, both American and international. It’s simply been comfirmed since.
IOW, you went to war on a pack of lies and seeing the results of your actions, I am miffed that some of you still stand behind said decision.
[aside]
RedFury, duffer, elucidator, please accept my condolences on the loss of your parents. I’m watching my own mother crumble away through the ravages of age, faling physically but not mentally, and in pain that can’t be medicated away (though not, thankfully, from cancer). Lost my father several years ago. It’s a grief that grabs you especially hard at times when you least expect it, I’ve found.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
…Apologies…
[/QUOTE]
Por nada. It never happened.
[QUOTE=John Mace]
However, around here one gets called an “appologist” unless one falls in line with every accusation hurled at Bush, whether it’s true or not or whether it makes sense or not.
[/quote]
Cite?
Someone who is truly interested above all, and truly experienced for that matter, in obtaining the facts and considering hypotheses before passing judgment does not congratulate himself on his superior ability for doing so. Your own grasp of the facts, and your own interest in careful assessment before drawing conclusions, has been demonstrated as flawed so many times here, in so many ways, that such a claim from you is extremely foolish. Your claim above is identical to that of a “creation scientist”, I hope you realize.
Fine. But the rest of us, recognizing our mere humanity as well as Bush’s, not yet having achieved your exalted uebermenschheit, are forced to depend on reasonability as well as reason in understanding human behavior. If there is no other reasonable way to understand Bush’s behavior, we feel no compunction in saying so. You, though, will fight to the last trench, however remote it may be, to resist accepting that other people understood the situation before you did. That is, when you’re not simply taking a contrary position for the mere fun of argumentation, trollishness which you have engaged in recently in increasing frequency.
The mindset that asserts a superior grasp of facts, and ability to understand them, that disparages any reasoning that one does not share, who insist on reasonability as well as reason, and even dismisses those who dare to point out one’s unreasonability as “morons”, is the mindset that got us *into * this mess in the first place. Your sharing of that mindset is part of the source of the problems you face here.
Jodi, perhaps you could enlighten us all and tell us what you *do * get upset about, what problems you *do * think the world has and what *should * be done about it. GOP talking points we already have, thanks, but the suggestion that those who *do * recognize problems and *do * want to fix them should instead join you in wanking is a new twist, worth some Pit Points at least.
You need to understand, but obviously yet do not, that not everyone who hates what Bush has done is a “Bush-hater”. It is highly possible not to hate but to pity him for being so out of his depth, and to pity us for what the consequences have been, while still harboring, well, hatred for what he has done. But the casual dismissal of anyone who questions the talking points you swallow for breakfast as mere “haters” does nothing to help anyone, least of all you. either fight ignorance or add to one’s reputation for thoughtfulness.
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Cite?
[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen it often enough. It is clear to me that John Mace is no fan of Bush, yet he is accused of being a Bush supporter quite frequently, simply because he defends him against a particular accusation. For the record, I have a hard time saying Dubya’s name without gagging.
Cite?
I don’t agree with eveything he says, but I tend to read his posts for their well thought out, analytical approach. He has also contributed greatly in a thread that Changed My Mind* about the teaching of evolution.
Yes, it can happen here on the Dope.
Well thought and better said, Elvish. But, if I can impose on a friendship longstanding, I will quibble. A trivial thing, perhaps, but that’s the trouble with quibbles…
I take John at his word. It is enough, I think, that we have points of agreement. Can’t expect him to love us. We’re not really the best sort, you and I, riff-raff, radicals, and scofflaws. Mustn’t expect too much, libertarians find our lot… a bit extreme.
And, well…we are, aren’t we?