Value of sai and other martial arts weapons in a real street fight (and their relative strengths)

I’m writing a story in which one of the characters uses sai as her main weapon. In order to understand the weapon and write more realistically, I bought some on Amazon. I must say, they totally exceed expectations. They’re really cool!

Couple impressions: They are heavier than they look in movies, but they are also somewhat easier to handle than you might think. Here is my totally non-expert opinion on why they’d be good in actual street combat, plus some miscellaneous advantages as a weapon, in no particular order:

  1. They are inexpensive. I bought two pairs and was impressed with the quality of both. They were each about $50. I’ve watched some videos go on about choosing sai and quality and whatnot, but both pairs impressed me as being fairly indestructible. Thus, you can get (apparently) maximally sufficient quality for a low price.

= advantage over pricey weapons like swords

  1. They are fairly small (smaller than I had thought. I followed YouTube video advice and got 19.5", which does seem right for my arm length [arm length + 1"]) and genuinely portable. You could put them in a belt or stick them in a car (pocket behind seat, etc.) without them being too conspicuous.

= advantage over large, conspicuous weapons like the bo staff

  1. They also serve as a shield.

You can guard with one or both or strike with one or both. The ability to use one as a shield while striking with the other seems fairly rare among martial arts weapons.

= advantage over many weapons

  1. Blunt (hard to hurt yourself, low-maintenance, and less lethal if you want them to be)

I put these factors here because they all arise from bluntness. You don’t have an edge with which to cut yourself or that could get damaged in a fight. Also, while these could easily be lethal, they don’t necessarily have to be. If I had to defend myself in a street fight, I would not want to kill the other guy. Just gain the advantage and get away. That is hard to control if you’re using a bladed weapon (any hit could be lethal).

= advantage over edged weapons

  1. Indestructible

As I said, I was impressed with the quality. These are solid-seeming chunks of metal with no visible welds. The one pair that is polished (the other is black) has casting marks on the yoku and seems to be one solid cast piece. I can’t imagine any street fighting scenario that could destroy one of these. In contrast, a bo has the advantages of bluntness stated above but could in theory be broken. A nunchaku cord could break, etc.

= advantage over many weapons

  1. Throwable

Sai technique includes throwing.

= advantage over many weapons

  1. Yoku (curved cross guards) protect hands.

= advantage over many weapons

  1. Formidable, credibly dangerous appearance.

This is a pretty subjective factor, but if you see the real thing, they look even more badass then they do in movies and whatnot (where they already look badass). A guy coming at me with a bo would be scary, but these would be scarier. A guy coming at me with a sword would seem like a joke, but these would not. Let me explain this last one. Yes, a guy serious with a sword would indeed be terrifying, but they seem on the surface a little renfair, a little absurd. Sai do not. I think the thought would be, “Oh fuck this guy really knows martial arts and shit!” Thus, in a street fight, I think you could scare a lot of people off, especially if they are unarmed.

Some disadvantages:

  1. Limited reach.

= disadvantage over bo, many swords, three-section staff, chain-based weapons, etc.

  1. Blunt.

Being blunt also has disadvantages, of course. Drawing blood can be an important psychological factor, even if the wound is not serious. You can also theoretically kill quicker if that’s your goal.

Those are the main disadvantages I see.


OK, the above are my inexpert ponderings. The thing about sai is that, owing to the shortness and simplicity of the word, it is a bit hard to google facts about them, and information online about them seems fairly limited. Real-world info, that is. Sure, you can learn about them in martial arts dojo context, but I have yet to read any account of someone who used them in a real fight. I’d love to hear stories if you have them (whether your own or links).

What are your thoughts on sai and how they’d fare in a fight? How would they stack up against a bo, for instance? I was watching a video with a guy doing wicked bo spins, and I don’t even know how you’d attack such a person with sai.

How would sai do versus a sword? nunchaku? three-section staff? and so on?

I eagerly await your opinions, as I have no idea myself and am quite curious. Thanks!

Damn, what street do you live on?

Why, we gonna rumble? :wink:

Fun fact: the sai evolved from the Okinawa instrument used to plant crops. “Honestly Mr. Samurai, I’m just going about my business!”

Judging from my comic books, you catch the sword in between two of the prongs and twist. Admittedly, I really have the Jitte in mind.

Nunchaku, incidentally, are not thought to be especially formidable weapons though they look cool among those skilled enough not to bonk themselves on the head. Which happens quite a bit among beginners. I’d probably attempt to entangle with one sai and attack with the other. Admittedly, I’ve never used any of these weapons, though I’ve seen them at my dojo.

I don’t think a sai would fare very well against a handgun. Does the story take place in modern day US? If so, you may want to contemplate the weirdness factor, even if you decide to ignore or suspend it completely.

You would be surprised, have you watched the gun vs. knife videos on youtube?

To summarize the results as long as the knife wielder is within twenty feet of the gun wielder the knife wielder wins.

I assume a sai can be used in a stabbing manner?

I’ve watched some local security footage of robberies some where the people were afterward taken to a backroom and executed. The robbers have stunningly bad technique, they never maintain a safe distance and in some cases have their guns pointed at the floor! I would feign co-operation and wait for a opportune moment to stab them, I never leave the house without at least two stabbing weapons concealed on my body one of which is a knife.

Don’t ask my street, I need em.

I’ve seen live demos with rubber knives and training guns which demonstrate the advantages of the knife when distances are short and the knife wielder has the initiative against an opponent with a holstered handgun.

The tip of the sai is not sharp however. See the wiki link.

ETA: Aeschines: google “Okinawa weapons”
eg http://www.amazon.com/Okinawan-Karate-Weapons/lm/RFFI936MMIVT5

Er, let me edit and say that the tip of the sai is not always sharp. It derives from the pitchfork which traditionally were of the pointy variety.

Whoops sorry I withdraw my objection then, I assumed the tip of a sai was sharp enough to be used as a stabbing weapon like a chisel or icepick.

Sorry.

Well… I affirm your objection. :o The sais depicted in wikipedia and typically used in dojos tend to have blunt points. But some websites on the internet imply that some of the original ones had sharp tips, or so I have gathered over the past hour or so.

Also my fun fact regarding crop planting is probably folklore. Or not: martial arts history tends to be murky.

There’s no reason why you can’t sharpen the tip of your sai (disregarding whatever regulations you might have.) The sai is as much a stabbing weapon as it is an impact weapon. There are even techniques for throwing it, which partly explains why a sai user might want to carry a third sai stuck in his belt.

The main disadvantages of the sai are 1) the time it takes to attain a certain level of proficiency, 2) limited range, 3) lack of mass to ward off heavy blunt weapons, and 4) a conspicuous appearance.

Thanks for the great comments, everyone!

Although most sai are not sharpened, they do have conical tips that would deliver an insane amount of force to a small area with a good thrust. That could easily be deadly. When you use them in the guard position (with the monouchi/bladelike-thingie going up your arm, the knuckles are like very comfortable and formidable brass knuckles that would also be quite formidable in a fight). Handling them has taught me how scary it would be to face an opponent with them.

Good points about guns. Of course, guns are scary and would likely beat anything else if the shooter were ready. One point I would add is that guns cannot be expected to take down an opponent and bullets can be fatal later without even being particularly painful immediately (I’ve read about shooting victims who were not even fully aware they had been hit at first). That can give someone with a melee weapon time to get in a fatal blow of his/her own.

Against a home intruder with a gun, I think a sai would be a great weapon because of its size and therefore ability to strike in close quarters with thrusting or swiping strikes. If you can strike the weapon arm before the intruder gets off a shot, the fight is basically won. Plus, many intruders probably do not expect that type of fight. I think it would also be a good weapon to keep in the car to protect against road ragers with tire irons, bats, etc. Flashing the sai would probably be enough to get most people to back down.

Obviously, any street fight is to be avoided. I’ve watched sport kendo on Japanese TV, and typically the opponents dance around looking for an opportunity to get the first blow that will land, since if it doesn’t they will get hit themselves. I suspect that, regardless of the weapon, a street fight is going to go down like that. One good blow from a sai, bo, nunchaku, or anything is likely to knock you out, cause you to drop your weapon, or otherwise incapacitate you in the fight, allowing your opponent to beat the shit out of you or kill you.

Seem pretty light. If you have to defend yourself against one, move in fast and disable the user.

What’s a bo?

Why would you want to attack somebody with a sai; If you’re in a position where you have no choice, see above.

Sai may defend against swinging or slicing motion of a sword but tougher to defend against thrusting motion aimed at center mass. Nunchaku may be the ideal weapon in a fight to the death scenario, while you may not hit with full force every time, you can hit a lot of times; i.e. death by a thousand cuts. A rap on the knuckles with a nunchaku is bound to weaken the wielding ability of the sai user.

Anyway, just my musings in an imaginary world of an imaginary scenario.

If somebody’s rushing you to punch or grab, you better drop him with your first shot because he’s going to be inside the reach of your weapons. Same thing with a sword, but it’s easier with a sword. Unless you practice a lot, you’re not going to be able to deliver much force in a blow to somebody who’s right in your face, but he probably has lots of experience punching people at that range.

Here is where sai have an advantage over a bo. With a bo, you have no striking power once the person gets within a certain range. With sai in the guard position, you have brass (or in this case, iron) knuckles with which to strike. IOW, you have no disadvantage versus being barehanded but instead a significant advantage.

Sure, a shorter weapon has an advantage as the range gets closer & closer. I’m just saying, if the guy knows to block a club as he charges in, there’s nothing particularly magical about a sai compared to, say, a tonfa, billy club, or a collapsible baton.

A bo is a long staff, approximately 6 feet in length.

My understanding is that a spear has the advantage in an open space over a sword. The swordsman’s job is to block the spear somehow, then move in. But in an open space, the spear wielder can evade. Not so indoors, where the sword has the advantage.

A bo has a lot of inertia: if I was defend myself I’d want to reinforce the improvised shield, using hands on both sides of the weapon. That I imagine might work better with a short stick or tonfa than with a (shorter) sai. Regardless, the job would be to block or deflect the bo then move inside. Or time things so that the bo passes the center line, then move in using the short stick as a safety shield, then a weapon. The sai might be superior with the timing strategy: I’d be uneasy about its blocking power against a heavy club.

Final caveat: none of us here appears to be familiar with the sai. That’s ok though, since we’re discussing fiction as opposed to self defense. Along those lines, I’ve heard that the Zoro three sword style is awesome.

I sure hope not. You’d have to bring a Whole Lot of flash-mob friends to take on Loach.

Your call

During our Shore Patrol training (it was a temporary assignment because they needed bodies for traffic control) someone asked if we’d get martial arts training. The CPO said “Karate is great, but Kamagnum will drop the sucker at 40 yards.”

Except that, as stated, he will be coming at you with naked fists and you will at least have the equivalent (actually better) of brass knuckles on, which you will not have with a tonfa, billy club, collapsible baton, etc.

It’s all theoretical, however. Accounts of fighting with sai in actual, you know, fights are something I haven’t found yet. The same thing for bo, nunchaku, tonfa, etc. (although I haven’t really looked for those). The real test would be to run simulations with actual fighters experienced with each, but that wouldn’t be practical or ethical.

I found an article with citations about the Okinawa police of the 1500s, after the ban on swords and spears was imposed. Their two main weapons were the sai and bo. [INDENT]The sai offered an exceptional ability to trap, ensnare, and deflect weapons. Sai were frequently unsharpened which meant they could break and bludgeon without killing.

Bo on the other hand offered a distinct length advantage along with clubbing capability. This allowed Shikusaji to control and dissuade perpetrators without resorting to lethal force. When combined, the distance and prodding of the bos along with the pinning and striking of the sai made for an effective system. [/INDENT] Walking the Beat with Okinawan Police - Ikigai Way