Veganinanitarianism

[minty_green]

I’m sure infotainment programs do exactly that sort of manipulation, SPOOFE. My only complaint here is with Scylla’s assertion (by way of Mick Foley) that there’s no legal recourse if the facts were as he described them yesterday–stated approval of harmless fun, which is then portrayed as being spoken of dangerous mayhem that the speaker had in fact condemned. If it really did happen that way and the proof is available, I’d be very, very happy to have taken that case on a contingency basis. After all, I’ve sorta had my eye on that new BMW.

And that was a very nice, Scylla, questioning my qualifications, then bitching about my posting of them as an “appeal to authority.” You read those false light cases I posted yet? Or are you just of the opinion that Vince McMahon trumps the Supreme Court on questions of law?

Keep on babbling, man. The OP was pretty funny, but you’ve been digging and digging ever since. Isn’t that hole deep enough yet?

[jab1]

1. Plants… do… NOT… feel… PAIN!!! They do not have a nervous system. End of that idiotic misconception. (I blame the schools for not doing a better job of teaching basic biology. That, or you goofballs fell asleep in class that day. )

2. PLD said something about how if it’s all right to eat an animal dumber than you, then it must be all right to eat an anencephalic infant. That infant is the same species as you. THAT’S why it’s wrong.

3. PLD also mis-defined the word omnivore. It does NOT mean a person or animal that will eat anything like a cartoon goat eating tin cans, it means a life-form that will eat any kind of FOOD. Styrofoam does not qualify as food. You don’t like the definition of the word, take it up with the writers of dictionaries.

4. I think I know why so many meat-eaters look with disdain upon vegans and vegetarians: They think you are cowards. They think you are wimps. “Oh, so the only thing you’ll eat is something that won’t fight back, huh? Or is it you can’t stand the sight of blood, you wimp, you weakling, you coward.” Some of them will actually say stuff like that out loud, but they are in the minority.

Y’all eat what you want. I don’t care.

[Scylla]

                     And that was a very nice, Scylla, questioning my qualifications, then bitching about my posting of them as an "appeal to authority." You
                     read those false light cases I posted yet? Or are you just of the opinion that Vince McMahon trumps the Supreme Court on questions of
                     law? 

I didn’t mean it as nice. I meant to be nasty. That’s my general response when someone suggests I’m manufacturing easily verifiable facts.

Your qualifications are not being questioned. Your use of them as a bludgeon in lieu of reasonable evidence is another matter.

So far you haven’t given any useful information or added anything to the discussion other than to suggest you’re superlawyer, as if that settles it. You’re jumping in and making firm pronouncements concerning incidents of which you are wholly ignorant doesn’t exactly build confidence in either your stated credentials or their worth as far as this discussion goes.

Finally, I also know that in being interviewed by an infotainment show, the interviewees are asked to sign a consent to editing and formatting waiver.

While Mick makes no mention of this, it is reasonable to expect (and perhaps one familiiar with the law in this area might have a clue as well,) that Mr. Foley signed one of these prior to the interview, or immediately after.
A

[Spoke]

Yeah, I suspect a waiver is the missing piece of the puzzle, and the reason the lawyers advised him not to sue. (Though there may be an argument that a waiver of liability in advance for what amounts to an intentional tort is in violation of public policy and therefore void. Don’t know if that argument would fly.)

But back to our animal-loving friends…

pldennison, quit backtracking. You have been throwing “factory farms” around like a stiletto in this debate. Are you now ready to admit that (with respect to the beef industry) that such “factory farms” don’t exist?

I hereby extend an invitation to you, pldennison, and for that matter to any Dopers out there who are still convinced that the beef cattle industry is irredeemably cruel:

If you are ever in the Atlanta area, look me up. Drop me an email. I will be happy to take you on a tour of beef farms of north Georgia, where you can observe first-hand the traumatic and terror-filled existence these poor cows endure. (Fair warning: you are going to see a lot of cows standing around in idyllic pastoral settings. Don’t blame me if you wind up envying them.)

Yes, they may ultimately die uncomfortable deaths. Welcome to the world. Most of us critters wind up dying uncomfortable, even cruel deaths. Grow up.

One other thing you will notice on our tour is how little these cattle burden the environment (contrary to the ideas of some posters). They eat GRASS. And sometimes they eat hay, which is (guess what) dried GRASS. No heavy fertilization required, no pesticides. Cattle country is an environmentalist’s wet dream. Only occasionally, in winter, do they get range cubes, containing (IIRC) mostly corn and sorghum, both of which are produced in surplus.

And to those posters who think that by not eating beef you are at least saving one poor creature from a crule death, I have this to say: :rolleyes:

So what do you thing would happen if everyone stopped eating beef? Do you envision all the cattle farms becoming big petting zoos where vegetarians could go to frolic with theior bovine brothers and sisters?

Cattle would become extinct. They only exist these days because we eat 'em. So, as a species, cattle have two choices:
a) Extinction. (The vegetarian option.)
b) An existence which (for 99.99% of the average bovine’s life) is peaceful and safe, but which ends cruelly.

I think if I’m a cow, I’ve gotta go with (b).

[ITR_champion]

Ok, spoke. That one broke news grounds in stupidity. I quit eating beef, so I going to drive the cattle extinct. Of course. I’d better add giant panda to my diet, or soon they’ll be goners too.

And of course you launch the argument that you see a few cattle grazing in a field, therefore you know the exact conditions under which all animals are raised. Try driving driving through Kansas, and see (and smell) for yourself.

If the blathering morons in this thread get any stupider, nobody will have any qualms about eating them.

But still, thanks for stopping by the pit. Ever since fatherjohn took off, we’ve been looking for somebody who had his uncanny ability to judge the character of tens of millions of people based on a single consumer choice.

[SPOOFE]

You misread his point, ITR. He said that by giving up beef, you’re not saving any cows.

[yosemite]

spoke wrote:

Cattle would become extinct. They only exist these days because we eat 'em. So, as a species, cattle have two choices: a) Extinction. (The vegetarian option.)

I’m sure it’s in jest, but the suggestion here seems to be that vegetarians will (if they “got their way”) cause the extinction of cattle. Yeah, like that’s going to happen.

Which, even if you took the whole idea seriously, is bullshit. As long as there are ovo-lacto vegetarians (who eat dairy) there will be a market for cows and cattle.

So, we “owe it to” the cattle to eat them? This makes no sense. If there is less demand for beef, less cattle will be bred, but so what? Do you see this as some great crisis, or something? If it was commonplace to eat ostrich as meat, we’d see a lot more ostrich farms. So, I guess you owe it to the ostriches of the world to eat them, OK? If you don’t, it’ll be a big crisis, a real tragedy. :rolleyes:

This whole thing is so absurd. I still haven’t figured out why you care. As someone else pointed out quite a while ago, according to an LA Times poll, a vast majority of vegetarians are veggie for health reasons, religious reasons, or just because they don’t want to eat meat. And still you care…why?

Since when are other people’s personal reasons for not eating something such a big deal? Wanna know why I won’t eat grits as well? Are you also concerned about why I refuse to eat them? Do you want to discuss my “non-grit eating lifestyle”? Why don’t you start a thread about it?

[dopetalker]

Myrr21-go to a quiet place, where you’re alone, and sit down and think about that-the smell of meat making you nauseous. Now stop. Ask yourself this question-what happened? What happened to you along the way in life to make you a vegetarian? Did you meet one who started proselytizing or were you a vegetarian from childhood? If you weren’t always one remember when you ate meat and it was fine! If it goes deeper than that ask yourself this: what real logic or reason is behind it? In answer to the person responding to this thread about drinking milk, yes, he’s right-our bodies weren’t designed with the imperative need to drink milk; BUT…they were designed with the ability to drink it…and then recognize it and use it to grow and develop. You eat a steak. The body absorbs it and gets stronger, excretes, and grows. Now think. Why would this be? Is eating meat or drinking an animal product wrong because maybe the product on its own merits is poison? Do our bodies react to those things the way they would to an ammanita phalloides (a nightshade plant) or hemlock? No! There’s a definite set of plants and animals that we shouldn’t touch-they have a color, appearance, smell, action or sound that says “OFF LIMITS!” Cows, pigs, chickens, goats, dogs, (well maybe not dogs) deer, etc. aren’t in that list. Some people say milking a cow and drinking the milk or killing one is cruel because it can’t defend itself. Oh… . So I guess it’s nicer to let it walk around with this big, bloated, heavy, painful membrane pulling down its stomach and internal organs so it can be eventually rotted right through or busted? Why would cows even make the wonderful stuff in the first place other than for consumption? Did it ever occur to you that maybe it’s by Divine design that animals usually can’t avoid being captured and eaten? What vegetarians need to realize is that what they are living and what they are asking the rest of the world to live too is basically a whole other religion, because when you think about it they are contrary to every religion in existence. What authority does vegetarianism come from? The Bible (which specifically gives a set list of meats to not eat BUT-also one to eat (a short list, but a list, none the less))? The Torah? The Koran? The Qabbala? Is it the Eleventh Commandment? No! There is one religion that holds the cow sacred and another that says that pork is not kosher but no religion commands man not to eat meat. Yes, we have feelings, and an abbatoir probably does turn the stomach, and some of the cows might know the immediate future (or the lobster about to boil) and you feel sorry. And wearing fur does tell of great disrespect and callousness to animals’ pain and trauma while being skinned, and most animal testing really is abominable-no living thing should have to go through them. Those are all for things that aren’t needed. But to read in a cause that isn’t there and then to try to champion it is letting these feelings get the upper hand and out of control. The dog wags the tail-the tail doesn’t wag the dog. In other words, get control of these feelings! But surely plants contain everything the body requires, especially because this list of things is protein, vitamins A, B, C, and D, calcium, niacin, iron, B12, sodium, carrageenan, carbohydrates, zinc, fats, etc. (I’m being sarcastic). Vegetables, fruits and legues are needed-they’re vital! But they aren’t the whole answer. The whole answer is-the whole package! What’s here! The bottom line is there simply isn’t a real need to only eat plants or non-animal-related products. The whole package is for you! Any person can have a view but he needs to not DARE to start lecturing me on what I can or can’t or should or shouldn’t eat or do because of his view. I’ll knock him to Mercury. Think about it. Eat!

[dopetalker]

Also-think about this-yes, animals get diseases like mad cow and hoof and mouth. But plants and vegetables have poisoned people too! And aren’t plants, fruits, legumes, etc. alive too? Are they not alive or feeling just because they can’t see or hear you or make sound or move (except the Venus fly trap)? Hunting for sport is wrong. But Eskimos, some Indians (at least in the past) African tribespeople and others only have animals like cows, pigs, seals, whales, etc. to eat in places where seaweed, tofu, daffodils, dandelion leaves, bean sprouts, and rutabaga can’t be found, or where they can be found there isn’t enough to feed everybody (unless you’re that certain Man who can divide food to feed thousands of people) and it is the height of arrogance, bully-ism and wrongness to suggest that that people have a need to abandon their ways and find a way to only eat vegetables. Period! This way of life needs to be assessed. Where, when, and why did it start? Everything is here for a reason. Vegetarianism to me is akin to the excising of male and female sex organs in the name of religion because of the belief that they are evil. The religions simply don’t say that. They are purely of man’s creation and of man trying to equate himself and his beliefs with the Divine and the true right. I’m sure great punishment somehow will and should fall on anyone with this great an arrogance and boldness and willingness to try and legislate what everybody can and can’t do (which is basically what vegetarians are trying to do). Scylla was very direct and blunt and insulting in what he said. But really look at what the situation is and what their actions and words are. You decide.

[SPOOFE]

Huge… block of text… Eyes… burning!!!

Gaaah!!!

(The “Enter” key is your friend, the “Enter” key is your friend…)

[Mockingbird]

*Originally posted by ThisYearsGirl *
**By the way, my last post was sarcastic. I don’t know if that came through.

And please no one make a series of stupid and unfunny jokes, like the ones resulting from my last angry sarcastic post in this thread.
**

*Vegans: They’re Not Just For Breakfast Anymore{/i]

[yosemite]

Dopetalker -

punctuation is good. Paragraphs are good.

*Originally posted by dopetalker *
The bottom line is there simply isn’t a real need to only eat plants or non-animal-related products. The whole package is for you!

Better start eating crickets, aborted fetuses, and puppies then. The human body will digest all these things, and grow stronger from the nutrition they offer.

Any person can have a view but he needs to not DARE to start lecturing me on what I can or can’t or should or shouldn’t eat or do because of his view. I’ll knock him to Mercury.

Uh - who started this thread? Who ranted and raved on this thread about what vegetarians eat? You do realise who started this thread, and why, right?

Think about it. Eat!

You think about it. You are telling vegetarians what to eat, or rather, are telling us to “think”. WTF? Do you assume that we never thought about our dietary choices? What absurdity.

And who here is telling meat eaters to stop eating meat? Please copy and paste any quotes from any vegetarian on this thread who is lecturing you on what to eat. It’s pretty much been the exact opposite.

[dopetalker]

Yosemitebabe-are you a witch? You must be because you’ve put a triple whammy on your bad old self by showing on three counts that you’re not paying attention or thinking. 1)people actually do eat crickets in many parts of the world so to talk about it like it’s abhorrent or wrong just because it’s not a common thing for you reeks of shelteredness and non-education about common customs in the world. 2)there are some animals we hold dear and some which are considered food. I did clearly state in my tirade that dogs are not in the list of animals to digest. Why some and not others? Because at one point I’ll bet there was a search and dogs were looked at, appraised and deemed to not be nutritively worthy of anything. Our instincts which have been Divinely and carefully and purposefully put into us tell us these things. 3)We are different from the animals. We are human. You, me and all the others are the top-the zeniths. The fear of us and the dread of us are in all creatures other than us, right from the very beginning. We don’t eat our own species and I never said or implied anything that said that doing so is or ever was ok. OK?

[kabbes]

Right spoke. The BSE crisis started because all those cows were eating… grass. Not the mashed up remains of other sheep’s and cow’s brains at all.

:rolleyes:

pan

[yosemite]

*Originally posted by dopetalker *
Yosemitebabe-are you a witch?

Gee, how polite. I predict you will have a great future here. :rolleyes:

You must be because you’ve put a triple whammy on your bad old self by showing on three counts that you’re not paying attention or thinking. 1)people actually do eat crickets in many parts of the world

So you’d better start eating them too, OK? I mentioned three things that are reported to be “food” in some parts of the world. So, since some people eat them, you’d better also.

so to talk about it like it’s abhorrent or wrong just because it’s not a common thing for you reeks of shelteredness and non-education about common customs in the world.

See above. And while you are at it, could you be more condescending?

2)there are some animals we hold dear and some which are considered food.

I hold cows very dear. :rolleyes: Who are “we”? Who gets to decide which animals are “dear” enough to not be placed on a menu? It varies from country to country, you know.

I did clearly state in my tirade that dogs are not in the list of animals to digest. Why some and not others? Because at one point I’ll bet there was a search and dogs were looked at, appraised and deemed to not be nutritively worthy of anything.

Do you mean that NO ONE, anywhere, eats dogs? Cites please.

Our instincts which have been Divinely and carefully and purposefully put into us tell us these things.

Cites, please.

3)We are different from the animals. We are human.

No shit, Sherlock.

The fear of us and the dread of us are in all creatures other than us, right from the very beginning. We don’t eat our own species and I never said or implied anything that said that doing so is or ever was ok. OK?

What are you ranting about?

And while you are at it, could you tell us why you care what we eat, or don’t eat? Do you care as much that I don’t eat grits? And if not, why not? Grits were put on this earth to be eaten by humans. And I’m not eating them. So are you going to start in on a rambling, unpunctuated lecture about that as well?

[kabbes]

All hail the great dopetalker, God’s representative on Earth, who is here to tell us what creatures we are allowed to feel a bond with! His other powers include:[ul][li]separating the beasts of the earth and the fowl of the air into those which Must Be Eaten and those which are Forbidden[/li][li]writing in asscrunchingly long paragraphs in order that we may feel the power of the LORD’s speech[/li][li]mighty world knowledge so that he might spread the LORD’s word to the heathens[/ul]Praise Be to the dopetalker![/li]
:wally

pan

[SPOOFE]

We don’t eat our own species and I never said or implied anything that said that doing so is or ever was ok. OK?

Sure we do, Dope.

[Spoke]

ITR Champion wrote:

And of course you launch the argument that you see a few cattle grazing in a field, therefore you know the exact conditions under which all animals are raised.

Uh, ITR, if you’ll read my prior posts you’ll find that I grew up ON A FUCKING CATTLE FARM! So yes, fuckhead, I am intimately familiar with the conditions under which cattle (at least in this part of the country) are raised. Just a guess, but you don’t score well on reading comprehension exams, do you?

yosemitebabe wrote:

This whole thing is so absurd. I still haven’t figured out why you care. As someone else pointed out quite a while ago, according to an LA Times poll, a vast majority of vegetarians are veggie for health reasons, religious reasons, or just because they don’t want to eat meat. And still you care…why?

I don’t care at all, except to the extent that vegetarians spread misinformation about the manner in which beef cattle are raised. Please note that I did not enter this thread until vegetarians started spouting off about “factory farms” and the tortured lives cows lead. Please note also that I have consistently said that I don’t care what you eat, just don’t lie about cattle farming to justify it to yourself.

Am I supposed to politely ignore lies and distortions to spare the feelings of the sensitive souls who are the vegetarian Dopers? I see ignorance, I’m gonna stomp all over it.

And for the record, I differ somewhat with Scylla on the chicken issue. I think chickens are just about as smart as cows, which isn’t much of a compliment. Both your average cow and your average chicken would have trouble outscoring your average carrot on an IQ test. Still, I think chickens can experience terror and pain and discomfort, and I agree with those who abhor the conditions under which most chickens are raised. (Poultry farms are the only ones, in my estimation, which might accurately be described as “factory farms.”) I fully understand and support anyone who (for humanitarian reasons) goes out of their way to either seek out free range chicken or avoids the stuff altogether.

I have no problem with anyone who choses a vegetarian lifestyle (and yes, for many, it is a “lifestyle,” complete with quasi-religious dogma). Just don’t proselytize me with a bunch of wild (and false) claims to justify the choice.

kabbes wrote:

Right spoke. The BSE crisis started because all those cows were eating… grass. Not the mashed up remains of other sheep’s and cow’s brains at all.

Look, I can’t vouch for the British beef industry. If I lived in Britain, I might be a vegetarian myself. I do know that here in the US, cows eat grass (supplemented in the winter with grain). 'Tain’t natural feeding meat to cows, but I can imagine how it would happen.

Contrary to the image your post conjures up, of a farmer shoveling meaty sludge into his cattle troughs, I expect the European feed manufacturers are to blame. I’m sure they put ground carcasses into their feeds and then made advertising claims along the lines of “Supplemented with protein!” Farmer reads the bag and says to himself “Protein? Hey that sounds good. Bet that’ll make my cows healthier!” The farmers probably didn’t even think about where that “protein” came from.

But thankfully, that practice has ended. Grass and grains is what cows are eating kabbes, but thanks for the alarm.

[pldennison]

*Originally posted by spoke- *
pldennison, quit backtracking. You have been throwing “factory farms” around like a stiletto in this debate. Are you now ready to admit that (with respect to the beef industry) that such “factory farms” don’t exist?

I haven’t backtracked a bit, spoke, so you can retract that right away. Factory farming refers to the entire process, from birth to shrin-wrapping in styrofoam. If 99 percent of the process is, as you describe it, “idyllic,” and one percent causes horribly unnecessary suffering, I reserve the right to feel morally uncomfortable with that one percent as regards a specific species. Do you really think it’s wise for you to jump into a debate and not ask me to be specific about a phrase I’m using, then lambast me for not using it the way you think it should be used? Have you met Milo?

Yes, they may ultimately die uncomfortable deaths. Welcome to the world. Most of us critters wind up dying uncomfortable, even cruel deaths. Grow up.

Gee, thanks, Dad. :rolleyes: Can we go get ice cream cones now?

One other thing you will notice on our tour is how little these cattle burden the environment (contrary to the ideas of some posters).

And, of course, the grass they eat is converted into two things: 1) Milk, and 2) Heat, which sublimates through the cows’ skin straight into the environment. It isn’t as if they defecate or anything, and it isn’t like, in many areas, ranchers allow it to run right into the water or anything, causing water purity problems. Right? It’s a miracle of physics!

So what do you thing would happen if everyone stopped eating beef? Do you envision all the cattle farms becoming big petting zoos where vegetarians could go to frolic with theior bovine brothers and sisters?

Watch in amazement as spoke simultaneously presents a false dichotomy and demonstrates he doesn’t understand the distinction between real and statistical lives!! (Hint: It’s a bad idea to argue against abortion on the ground that you might kill the next Beethoven. See if you can figure out why, and how it applies to your examples.)

Cattle would become extinct. They only exist these days because we eat 'em.

Yeah, there’s no market for fertilizer or anything. No, sir. There aren’t any farmers who would prefer to use cow shit to fertilize crops.

a) Extinction. (The vegetarian option.)

Um, please don’t speak for vegetarians. Also, please don’t assume a dichotomy where none exists.

b) An existence which (for 99.99% of the average bovine’s life) is peaceful and safe, but which ends cruelly.

Because it isn’t as if we could make slaughterhouse practices more humane and sanitary, huh?

[pldennison]

Oh, hey, spoke, what’d you think of Howard Lyman’s book? I guess he doesn’t know what he’s talking about either, huh? It isn’t like he or his family ever raised cattle or anything.