Originally posted by dopetalker:
I'm sorry, are you trying to claim here that 'taboo' meats are established as such because they're 'looked at' and a consensus is reached as to their nutritive worth? And that we (or The Committee for Acceptable Food Choices or whoever) reach this consensus instinctively AND (note the worrying use of capitalisation) 'Divinely'?
Here’s a potted (ha! ‘potted’, geddit?) history of dog (and other ‘taboo’ meats) consumption:
Originally posted by spoke:
I don’t know how you can make such a broad, definitive claim. This article argues that in the US: 1)that has not always been the case, and that, 2) in fact:
…
So you’re saying that now that the ban’s in place, no-one’s ever going to come up with a cheaper or more readily available alternative to hay and grain? From the above article:
spoke again:
And chicken manure, apparently.
Appeal to authority in re: Tom Wolfe. He’s a writer, not a lawyer. Minty, who is a lawyer, cited actual case law. When it comes to law, I’m more inclined to believe a lawyer, not a professional wrestler.
Not to be strident, but, “Cite, please.” Libel law is libel law. If anything, network news magazines or so-called “infotainment” shows would be held to a stricter defamation standard, since by the criteria you describe, they cannot be legitimately held to be engaged in the process of newsgathering. Reporters are given a lot of leeway, with plaintiffs needing to demonstrate reckless disregard for the truth as well as malice aforethought.
pldennison wrote:
I think it’s “unwise” of you to jump into a debate and sling around a misleading and intellectually dishonest phrase, if you intended that phrase to mean (as you now contend) the entire process of producing beef. Personally I think you are lying, and that when you originally used the phrase “factory farm” you envisioned (and wanted the readers to envision) some dark and evil place where cattle spend their entire lives in pens, and are force-fed sheep-brain-sludge, and are occasionally prodded with electrodes by the evil farmers, just for kicks.
Cows defecate? That’s what your argument is reduced to now? We should be vegetarians because cows defecate?
Deer defecate,too. Sometimes right into pristine mountain streams! The horror! Let’s wipe the bastards out!
Don’t ever go swimming in a lake or in the ocean, because you know what? Fish defecate too! You are swimming around in fish feces, you fool! Not to mention seal feces and beluga whale feces!
Hie thee to thine plastic bubble!
Brilliant. Yes, farmers will devote huge tracts of expensive farmland to grazing cattle just for the privilege of gathering up their shit. Gosh, you’ve really got the economic angle covered there, Greenspan.
[quote]
Oh, hey, spoke, what’d you think of Howard Lyman’s book? I guess he doesn’t know what he’s talking about either, huh?
[quote]
I think the guy’s an alarmist trying to make a buck by telling vegetarians what they want to hear. He is (in essence) the purveyor of religious literature.
Again I extend my invitation to come see how an actual cattle farm works. See it for yourself, and don’t get your information filtered through someone who has an economic interest in telling a sensational story.
Vivamus, your article is a good argument for close regulation of the cattle feed industry. We do have to watch what feed manufacturers put into their products. But that does not mean we have to throw the baby out with the bathwater and eliminate the beef industry altogether.
Oh, and I should point out that your article is also somewhat misleading, in that it suggests that some farmers are feeding chicken feces directly to their cattle. What’s happening is that some feed manufacturers are apparently trying to save some bucks by using chicken feces as an ingredient in their feeds rather than grain. (And after all, chicken feces is, at least in part, “recycled” ulp grain.)
Still not a wise practice, but again, that argues for better regulation of the feed industry.
Two points:
Feed makes up a tiny part of the diet of most beef cows. It’s mostly grass and hay.
I’m betting most of the farmers who buy the cheaper feed that contains the chicken feces don’t have a clue that it’s in there. It’s a pretty safe bet that the manufacturer isn’t putting “Improved formula! Now made with chicken shit!” in big block letters on the bags.
Regulate the feed industry. No need to try to panic everyone into vegetarianism.
Fascinating thread, complete with thermodynamic side argument, a devolution into the WWF and 20-20, vanilla nonsequiter, and someone being called a witch. Keep it going, it’s great reading!
Speaking about myself, I’ll admit to flakiness. I am probably more important to myself than to others, so I will admit to that also. I don’t think anyone has ever accused me of being pompous, but that is possible.
I also believe that humans were probably evolved or designed (whatever position you take) to eat meat. I think my decision to become vegetarian was somewhat emotionally based. I had thought about it for years, after hearing my mother talk about the books she was reading about diet or ecology or the environment. She and Dad were reading a book called The Gradual Vegetarian after she had her stroke.
When my oldest daughter came home from ninth grade health class with pamphlets on factory farms and how animals were treated that were being raised for food, that is when I became vegetarian. I even joined PETA for a year. I disagreed with some of their methods, so did not renew my membership.
Som of Scylla’s following quoted reasons were also my reasons:
That was probably my big one.
I’m thinking that sentience is what distinguishes plants and animals for me.
I wouldn’t try to say which is more important, because that could arguably be called a subjective matter of opinion
This is also subjective. Animals in the wild are not controlled by humans and have the freedom to live their natural lives, which to me would be more valuable than being raised for food. I believe it would be better not to exist at all than to be born for the specific purpose of being eaten.
I am not fantasizing about anything. I realize that my decision is not completely based on logic, is in a large part emotional, and goes against the opinion of many. But I am not harming anyone by being vegetarian. All kinds of people live in the world, and most of them are interesting to me. I like the differences in all of us.
Another reason I can think of is econonmics. “Meat feeds few at the expense of many.” (quote taken from the link).
I have never claimed to be a vegan, but do claim to be vegetarian.
Scylla, I have always enjoyed your posts and came to this thread apparently quite late; several pages into it. You seem to ordinarily be a kind, thoughtful person. Your OP is so viturperative. I read that you had been lectured by vegans. Many vegans and vegetarians would never dream of accosting someone in this manner. As Yosemitebabe says, most of us just want to be left alone.
OK, I’ll post something personal here, rather than post another nonsequiter myself.
I respect vegetarians and vegans. And I would treat them with dignity and respect at all occasions when dining. If I was at their house, I would not boorishly insist on being served meat. If they came to my house, I would serve something that would be agreeable to them.
My issue with the perception of dietary advocacy groups of any kind is the same as my issue with most advocacy groups. I fear the slippery slope.
I fear that if people continue to proclaim with slogans again and again that “meat is murder”, etc, that eventually someday it will most certainly not be a case of “you eat meat if you like, leave me alone”. It will be a case of “new law bans eating of veal”, “new law bans serving of meat in certain places”, and finally “new law bans eating of meat - period”.
Of course, I hear many claim that the goals of many of these groups is not to ban meat eating, just to “educate”. I’m sure that is true for the majority of vegetarians/vegans. However, it seems sensible to me that anyone that says and truly believes “meat is murder”, for example, also wants that murder to end - not just for their personal diet, but for everyone else’s as well. I’m not saying that they personally are advocating legislation to do so, per se, but that they at least would not be unhappy were such a matter put on a ballot, or voted on by their legislature.
It’s the same way I feel about HCI - I don’t honestly believe that the goal of HCI is firearms education, and the banning of “assault rifles” and “cop killer bullets”. I believe their ultimate goal is the National Guard conducting house-to-house sweeps of firearms, and having gun owners being loaded into trains to go to forced re-education camps. But then, I’m a bit cynical about them. 
I really, really can’t help but think that a similar fear is at the root of many people’s issues with dietary advocacy groups and their members.
PlD:
Not clear on precisely what arguments of Minty Green’s you agree with.
The incident could never have happened, and either I, or Mick Foley has fabricated it.
If it did happen, then Minty Green would have saved the day from the evil 20/20 and incompetant WWF lawyers.
If you claim credentials you don’t have to support your argument.
“Bullshit. I’m a lawyer” (oh, ok. I guess it never happened. Never mind the videotape, he’s argued before the Supreme Court)
Re: Tom Wolfe. As an appeal to authority he’s a pretty good one. An internatianally known journalist and writer. He is universally recognized as a meticulous researcher, and has been for more than 30 years.
In preparation for writing “Ambush at Fort Bragg” Mr. Wolfe spent 3 months, researching and accompanying investigative tv reporters.
I’d have to say that’s a appeal than “I’ve argued before the Supreme Court, and I say so.”
And the beautiful thing about a message board is that it is absolutely moot, and makes no difference that Minty Green is a hotshit lawyer. If he was a janitor, his arguments would equally stand of fall on their own merits.
SO far he hasn’t made arguments. He’s made opinions. Trying to find his cites, I see that they specifically refer to to the written media, not TV.
I responded that this was the case and recieve “I’ve argued before the Supreme Court, and written on this subject.”
He’s not arguing or writing about it very well here, though.
This may come as a big shock to you, but some people do eat dogs and they do receive nutritional benefits from eating dog meat. See, some cultures do not hold dogs dear. Some cultures do hold cows dear. It has nothing to do with instinct.
Spider Woman wrote:
A ha!!! See??? Vegetarian tracts!!! Being peddled to children!!! In our schools!!!
(Whatever happened to separation of church and state?)
Spider Woman:
Yes, it does seem rather clear that I’ve been nurturing my inner asshole as far as this thread goes. Sorry I disapointed you.
spoke - see I think you’re slightly missing the point of view of those who don’t want to eat meat due to the crap cows are fed. It doesn’t really matter if at this moment in time 80% of cows are now fed grass. The fact is that [list=A][li]In very recent history a lot of cattle has been fed rather unpleasant things and we have been made aware of this[/li]
[li]A lot (how many? who knows) of cattle are still being fed crap - quite literally apparently, in the case of chicken manure[/list=A]At this point the consumer has a choice - [list=1]shrug their shoulders, claim they don’t care and merrily shove another steak on[/li]
[li]try to identify for every piece of beef they eat just what that cow has been fed over the course of its life, and whether or not it has been exposed to other cattle (such as its mother) that may have infected it with various horrific diseases[/li]
[li]wash their hands of the whole mess and just give up beef altogether[/list=1]At the moment I’m in category (1), but I’m rapidly heading towards category (3). I just don’t have the time or effort to keep up with (2).[/li]
To summarise: the fact that you may have experience many idyllic cattle farms is irrelevent to this argument whilst other farms exist that persist in feeding their cattle chicken manure, bits of other cow’s brains or other material that should not be eaten by a bovine. And clearly to pretend that such practices are totally unheard of is disingenuous whilst (a) there is no law insisting that cattle are fed only grass and (b) we have evidence (as provided, for instance, by Viv) to the contrary.
pan
Is it jungles in Africa now? I´ve always heard McD being blamed for the rainforests in South America. Besides this argument is really silly since that at least here in Europe McDonalds purchase everything domestically. Swedish restaurants use only swedish meats, milk, bread etc.
**
The key word here is health scares.
/Andreas
Actually, if you ever want to come to China, I’d be glad to take you by to get some fresh dog. Normally, they are skinned and hang from meat hooks, but you can get fresh on the paw as it were. It’s legal and considered quite a delicacy in the winter. I must point out that this is primarily in Guangdong province. /homer voice on/ ummmm, winter, fresh dog, ummmm /homer voice off/
Not sure if it’s still legal in Korea, but they used to have “dog farms” there that specifically raised dog for slaughter. Maybe resident expert Astro Boy can fill us in on the current situation.
Scylla. You have a rare talent. 5 page pit rant. Have to say I’m enjoying this one almost as much as the Evil Nazi Groundhogs. What’s your secret?
So, Coil, are you denying that there was a problem with BSE in the UK, or that BSE is linked with CJD?
Or are you just looking for the cheap shot with no justification behind it?
pan
When have I ever contended otherwise?
Pal, if you’re going to accuse me of lying, you’d better come up with a LOT more than “I think.” I may do a lot of stuff on the SDMB, but lying is most assuredly not one of them. You’d better come up with some evidence muy pronto, or apologize and retract.
Uh, you know, my mother’s family is from West Virginia, and I grew up in rural Northeast Ohio. If you think I’ve never seen cattle grazing, you’re sadly mistaken. If you don’t know what a goddamned phrase means, ASK, and save yourself some embarrassment.
Christ, you can’t even get from point A to point B, can you?
You: Cows don’t burden the environment. They just stand around and eat grass.
Me: Actually, there are water problems associated with runoff from large-scale ranching operations.
You: So we should all be vegetarians?
Me; :rolleyes:
Well, you know, it’s not like anyone eats cheese or drinks milk or anything, either. Or gets to graze on federal land out West at a huge discount. Yep, if everyone stopped eating beef tomorrow, cows would be extinct, oh, probably within the week.
Wow, you sure think a lot of stuff, doncha? It sure is nice to have all the answers so you can dismiss anyone who disagrees with you, prima facie as wrong, I suppose.
Scylla: minty quoted defamation case law. You quoted the WWF, as well a man whose job is to deceive yokels into believing they’re watching a sporting event. I’ll go with case law, thanks.
Appeal to authority is about the weakest argument there is. I like Tom Wolfe’s books a lot, but I don’t value his opinion on defamation law any more than yours or Mick Foley’s.
I can assume your cite regarding various levels of libel law for newspaper reporters and newsmagazine shows is not forthcoming.
Face it, you look increasingly desparate with each post. The Washington Post=Jack Chick? Let’s see . . . Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper, religious freak . . . tough choice. Your opinion and some professional wrestler’s trump established defamation case law? Yeah, OK.
Err…well, perhaps not all. I have right here in front of me a flyer from the McDonalds down the block from Harrods in Knightsbridge, which states “Some beef of South American origin.”
Kabbes, I am not denying that there have been cases of BSE in the UK and most recently there was the whole foot-and-mouth affair.
As for BSE being linked with v-CJD I thought the scientific jury was still out on that one. From what I´ve read the exact cause and effect of BSE and v-CJD has not been proven. There may very well be a connection between eating BSE-infected cow products and getting CJD, but I still fell pretty safe eating my steak or burger. When reading some scare articles you would almost believe that every briton has contracted CJD.
There is a health scare almost every day if you read the papers or watch the news. One week fish is good and the next it is bad. I emphasized the word scare because that is what it is most of the time.
One thing I dislike about the vegetarian and/or environmental lobby is how they make accusations without any scientific evidence. If for example feeding GM corn to pigs makes the meat dangerous, it should be easy for them to prove it.
/Andreas - spending far too much time reading this thread when he should be working.