Veganinanitarianism

The BBQ Pit
81

You are wrong about this Scylla. Let’s say a person needs 2,000 calories to maintain their body weight. Where do those calories go? They go back into the environment as heat, mostly. They do not return to the environment as energy plants or animals can use.

But places to grow plants are not unlimited. Look at the China situation. In the past 20 years the Chinese diet has changed and people are eating more meat. Because of this, China is running out of food. The farms that used to support a vegetarian diet now cannot support the omnivorous diet. More plants need to be grown and more resources are consumed. Not just sunlight, but land, water, fossil fuels to run farm equipment are all used more when people eat meat.

82

Dr. Lao:

I know you’re a smart guy and all, but I’m really right.
There is no known biological process that converts matter to energy. Biological chemical reactions merely store energy. These chemical reactions are originally driven by sunlight.

Some plant out there absorbs 20,000 calories worth of sunlight or so, and uses that power to drive chemical reactions that store that energy. Some cow eats the plant and does cow stuff, releasing 18,000 calories worth of energy into the environment. It radiates back into space eventually, Exactly as it would have done the night it hit earth were the energy not captured and stored by a plant.

Now you eat a steak, and radiate 2,000 calories worth of heat over time.

Take the plants and animals out of the equation and the sunlight still basically radiates back into space (except for that which drives random chemical reactions.)

All plants and animals do is delay the radiating by a little bit.

There is no matter lost in any of these reactions. No resources consumed other than sunlight. As I’ve said, until we start getting anywhere near using up the light hitting the earth Veggie vs. burger is moot.

And Dr. Lao. China has had food problems for like 1,000 years. They have lots of people and not enough arable land. It was only recent agricultural and economic success that even allowed the Chinese the option of eating meat. That they have the option is a testament to modern agricultural techniques to some degree, and to a much large degree the enormous effort that’s occured over the last several decades in the form of “step-farming.”

Current Chinese food crises have more to do with the fact that the Chinese have been running at a full or slightly beyond food capacity population for ages.

In many ways the population of that country (probably do to geography,) seems to follow Boyle’s law. The population seems to immediately expand to whatever food capacity exists.

83

Not to mention that the Chinese Government has been interfering with it’s populace’s breeding habits for those same twenty years as well.

I don’t think China’s a very good example.

84

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I’d venture a guess that most vegetarianism (I refuse to use the Oprah-fied word) is a shallow, emotion-based decision that does not stand up to logical scrutiny. As has been proven in this thread.

Not that there’s anything wrong with that. People are veggies because it makes them feel better? OK by me.

It’s only when they move past that foundation and start playing pretend, that it’s a more sophisticated or kinder and gentler way of living, that the “uh-uh” detector goes off.

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Actually, given the subject matter and the crowd, that smell could be two-day-old tofu.

85

There’s your first problem. Best keep the venturing to a minimum and stick close to home base, Cap’n. Looks like you aren’t equipped for it.

Of course, vegetarian and vegan are two very different things, the former being someone who doesn’t consume animal flesh, and the latter being someone who strives not to use any animal products including (among others) leather, wool, dairy, and honey, but you knew that, right? Oh, what’s that? You didn’t know, and instead wanted to look like Cool Mr. uber-Conservative by using dumb buzzwords like “Oprah-fied,” but it turns out you’re just a moron who can’t tell the difference between things that aren’t the same? Huh. Well, actually, I can’t say as I’m all that surprised.

Let’s see . . . the people who had a problem with other people’s diets prior to the thread still have a problem, and the people who didn’t, don’t. Nice “proof,” Descartes. Where did you develop these amazing forensic skills, not to mention the incredible insight into the thought processes of complete strangers? I’d sure like to know, so I can avoid recommending it to any friends, since it apparently makes one an idiot.

Also, please explain how kosher laws stand up to logical scrutiny, and if they do not, why jizzbags like you don’t spend a lot of time bitching about them.

Boy, you and Scylla are sure obsessed with this idea that vegetarians and vegans need your approval, aren’t you? Here’s a clue, in boldface in case you have trouble reading: We don’t. Didn’t ask for it, don’t want it, don’t give a rat’s ass.

Actually, if this thread has proven anything, it’s that knee-jerk conservative fuckbags sure seem to feel threatened by people who don’t eat meat.

86

Looks like Pldenison, the Black Bart of the Vegan crowd just basically shot my trusty sidekick Milo full of hot lead.

::looks down at Milo’s bloody corpse::

Boy. You ain’t gonna make it. Best you just relax, and go into the light. I’ll see you on the other side.

Black Bart err… Pldenison:

As I said, I ain’t err… don’t have any problem with faith based vegetarianism.

I’ve been aiming to clear up some misconceptions and clean out the “save-the-world by being Vegan crowd.”

My interest in other people’s food is neither here nor there. It’s a valid topic of conversation. If we couldn’t talk about things that weren’t any of our business on this board, I’d reckon there wouldn’t be a turd’s worth of conversation.

Besides, I figure I get to do this 11 more times before I break even with those evil Vegan scum who keep sticking their nose in what I eat. Tit for tat. An eye for an eye.

It’s the way of the West.

Now you dealt harshly with young Milo there. He’s a full grown man and knew what he was getting into. He took his chances. You done buried him on Root Hill for his impertinences.

I can’t help but think some of those bullets were meant for me.

So,

Let me ask:

Why are you a Vegan?

87

Pldenison:

Yeah, clearly you’ve latched onto something. Repression of Vegans is first on the list of the Conservative Agenda.
Why do you have to sully my nice nasty little rant with politics?

88

I am familar with the law of conservation of matter and energy. The point is that when we eat meat we can only get energy from the plant matter that animals have stored as biomass. We get no energy from the carbon dioxide and water the animal expelled during respiration. Sure that water and CO[sub]2[/sub] can be recycled, but to do so requires more plants. More plants requires more land to be cultivated, which uses up limited resources like fresh water and fossil fuels.

I am not saying that we are running out of land to grow animal feed on, I am just saying that more land is needed to grow animal feed to raise animals to feed people than is needed to grow crops to feed people.

89

you guys DO know whats in hot dogs, don’t you?
:wink:

90

Scylla, just to be clear, I’m not a vegan. I’m a vegetarian, so I’ll amend your question.

(As an aside, you’re going to get a lot better dialogue by asking, “Why are you an X?” then you are by saying “X’s are wrong, and here’s why.” At least from me, anyway. I’ll give like I get. Tough but fair, as the game theorists say.)

(Further aside–ain’t nobody saving the world. We’re all gonna die in the end, every last one. What matters to me is what I do while I’m alive.)

(Another one: Any bullets shot at Milo will only graze you to the extent that you choose to associate yourself with such transparently idiotic statements. I’m sure Milo will have all sorts of explanations for how his observations are completely correct. Anyone who buys that, I’ve got a bridge I need to unload.)

(Final aside: Yes, some veg’ans give really uninformed, stupid answers to the question. I’m as embarrassed by them as I am by what Lib refers to as “hand-stabbing atheists.”)

Anyway, you asked why I’m a vegetarian. Part of the answer deals with the scope of my vegetarianism. I don’t eat any animal flesh – no beef, no veal, no pork, no poultry, no fish. I do eat dairy. I’ll eat eggs from free-range chickens only, and I pay extra for them. I will not eat cheese cultured with rennet if I can avoid it. I do not wear leather at all.

Why? Well, because I decided that, based upon the widespread horrific practices in the factory-farming industry, which produces the lion’s share of the meat consumed in this country, I would do everything in my power not to contribute unnecessarily to the suffering of sentient beings. Sentient in my judgement, anyway. I subscribe, at least in part, to Peter Singer’s maxim that the difference between humans and nonhuman animals is not a significant enough difference to justify causing them unnecessary suffering. And factory farming, in my opinion, is unnecessary suffering.

That’s it. It’s that simple. If I was so inclined as to kill an animal myself, swiftly and humanely, I’d eat it. But I don’t need to–I get along just fine without it. I believe that molluscs and shellfish differ quite significantly from mammals, foul and other marine animals, but I don’t like to eat them anyway.

I’m certainly not stupid enough to think that complicated issues like research allocation can be subjected to reductionist answers like “stop eating meat,” although it is fairly evident that the resources involved in raising, feeding, transporting and slaughtering animals somewhat exceeds those used for produce. Also, that a given acre can yield more nutrients for human consumption from plant matter than it can from animals.

Anyway, that’s my answer. Ask another vegetarian, and you’ll get different answers with different restrictions, some smarter, some dumber.

As far as the faith-based thing, I don’t think it matters; other people’s dietary habits are still none of your business. Now, if they’re advocating as a matter of public policy vegetarian-friendly practices that you think will be harmful to everyone for some reason, speak right up. If they’re rude to you, tell them off. But it all comes down to what each of us believes, what our ethics are, and how we practice them, and as long as nobody is causing you harm, it’s presumptuous to question them. Otherwise, you’re just attempting to exercise control over their lives. If they believe that it’s bad to eat little animals, it’s not inherently any sillier than any other belief.

91

Scylla,

Are you being intentionally obtuse, or do you just not have a response to Dr. Lao's excellent comment:

Growing crops doesn’t JUST require sunlight - it also requires land, farmers and (under modern farming practices) lots of machinery, fertilizer, pesticides and (often) piped-in water. Using the 10:1 ratio that has been frequently quoted in this thread, producing 1 ton of meat uses about 10 times as much land, fuel (for the machinery), fertilizer + pesticides as producing the same amount of crops, with a much larger impact on limited resources and the environment.

I would think that, as a meat eater, you would be happy to have more vegetarians around : less demand for meat = cheaper prices....

In honor of this topic…
“The butcher with the sharpest knife has the warmest heart.” - The Prisoner

92

First, let me state that the vast majority of beef is NOT grown in razed tropical rainforests. Almost all the beef we eat in the US is produced right here in the US. Cows eat grass, right? So it is generally much cheaper to ranch cows where there is plenty of grass, ie the American midwest, rather than having to chop down trees and plant grass yourself.

Yes, some beef is raised in the tropical rainforests. But most isn’t. Oh, and Argentine beef comes from the southern pampas, the native grassland.

Second, vegetarians can do what they like 364 days of the year, and I couldn’t care less.

However.

There is one day when every American citizen is ritually obligated to partake of the sacred flesh of the ceremonial meal. Of course I’m talking about Thanksgiving. All Americans…all True Americans…must do this thing. If you refuse to join the holy sacrement of The Turkey, then you are nothing but a God-damned lily-livered subversive hippie Communist. And you are cordially invited to exit our beloved country before you are thrown out.

God Bless you all, and God Bless the United States of America!

93

Well no. I didn’t know either. Dumb me. I’ll even take your word for it that you’re 100% correct.

To me the difference is that a Vegan is just an especially obnoxious vegetarian. A Vegan is an absolute flake. A vegetarian is just probably a flake.
I’ll grant you the “none of my business argument,” though in fact I find it no inconvenience to my arguments on a message board at all. Lots, even most of what is discussed here isn’t anybody’s business.

I’m not trying to stop Vegans or vegetarians from doing their thing. I’m just opining that it’s flaky behavior.

Since you’ve shared personal beliefs in a courteous and forthright way let me take your hint and break with the spirit of my OP and respond in like fashion.

I wonder how (if you do so,) that you reconcile your behavior towards consuming animals with the fact that your very existence consistently causes the death of vast numbers of animals on a daily basis?

Lots, or even most of the products you consume cause a great deal of harm to the environment. Many cause much more harm than and result in much more suffering and death than eating a chicken or a steak.

Do you choose not to use paper because it’s derived from lumber products the harvesting of which decimate wildlife?
What about the truly horrendous effects of the mining and manufacture of Titanium Dioxide upon the wetlands of Georgia? Whole ecosystems are wiped out.

Paper does more harm, and causes more suffering to animals and humans than beef IMO.

Do you drive on roads? The strip mining of gravel for tarmac is horrifying in its effects.

Our farmer grows a hay/alfalfa mix on our property which he either bales or turns into haylage for his cows. He returns the manure to the fields along with chicken manure to renew them, and everything works fine.

Last year he rotated one field into no-till corn. The growth of that crop necessitated tons of chemicals pesticides, herbicides, and commercial fertilizer to restore the depleted fields. He even had to lay down mined lime, not to mention what the herbicide did to nearby trees, and the insecticide did to the fish in the pond.

The conclusion from my experience is that the growth of corn was the worst thing that could have possible happened to my fields while the haylage/cow situation was relatively benign if inefficient.

I’d feel a lot more guilty eating that corn than a steak.
And as for chickens. I’ve never met a chicken as smart as a legume. Your basic legume will seek water with its roots and reach its leaves to the sky. Apparently chickens in chicken houses will die because they’ll forget where their feed is, though they live in a tiny box.

I’ve had free-range chickens and in all humble serioussness, let’s face it. It’s cruel. They’re just not up to the responsibilities of freedom. They like to peck each other to death for fun. They’ll stick their heads in a dark place and their brains will overload and they’ll just stay there until they die of thirst. Something always gets into their enclosures and murders them in wholesale fashion.

If there is food or water in front of a chicken they’ll probably be able to eat it, but that’s about the limit of a chicken’s abilities.

I’ve been in a chicken house and it sucks. It’s nasty. Free-range chickens aren’t any better, and in fact may have it worse in some ways. Being a chicken is just basically a shitty existence no matter how you slice it, and being free-range doesn’t help that fact (though it might make you feel better.)

And your free-range eggs are probably fertilized while your others probably aren’t.

I also feel that the use of leather is much more benign in terms of suffering and death than synthetics.

94

I feel a new Pit thread coming on, I really do.

I stared a thread last year titled “A Semi Gentle Rant From A Vegetarian”, which was a plea (in essence) to be left the hell alone. In that thread, many veggies told tales of the extreme boorishness that they’d suffered from meat-eaters. As pldennison has said, and as I and many of others have said, meat-eaters can be far bigger pains-in-the-ass than vegetarians ever could manage to be. A lot of this is because vegetarians are vastly outnumbered, so we encounter meat-eaters all damned day. And a certain percentage of them are going to be assholes - so you do the math.

But how many vegetarians do you meet a day? And how many of them accost you and give you a hard time? I can damn well frickin’-guarantee you, you get a lot less grief than we do.

But you still feel like you have just been subjected to “too much”, and you had to start this thread as a response to that? Well, phooey on you. Get over it. Why the hell you care what other people eat is just beyond me anyway.

I feel like I’m reaching my quota for Pit threads right now (having started one a few days ago that has taken on a life of its own) but I think it might be insightful for all us veggies to congregate, and share with the rest of you some of our tales. And, hey, while we’re at it, why doesn’t one of us dredge up all the old veggie-bashing threads meat-eaters have started, and see how they compare in number to the meat-eater bashing threads veggies have started? Frankly, I think we veggies have far more of an axe to grind in regards to how we are treated, so it just amazes me that it’s all the meat eaters that do all the bitching and whining.

95

How self-congratulatory of you, pl. Gee, what a departure from your typical self.

Wanna get personal, brainiac?

Did “vegetarian” manage to cover the umbrella of people who had meat issues for at least a century or so? Good enough for me. Not for you? Then sub-classify off into oblivion, Chucko.

But you can feel free to proclaim that all people who have become herbivores went through soul-searching reflection? Oh, I forgot who you were for a second.

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Sure did! See above.

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And your lecturing me on jumping to conclusions without knowing what the fuck I’m talking about? Find a mirror.

“I’m not left-handed. I’m a person who eats and writes left-handed, but who bats, plays hockey and golfs right-handed. Therefore, never refer to me as left-handed.”

No. Fuck off. I’m a lefty.

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Well, I was referring to the fact that it is impossible for human survival without causing the suffering of other living things. Therefore, if a person did not eat meat because they couldn’t bear the thought of suffering of other living things, that doesn’t really stand up to logical scrutiny, Madame Curie.

If they don’t eat meat because they don’t like the thought of the suffering of cows and chickens, they should note that if done correctly, the demise of these animals is probably better than it would be eventually suffering and dying of natural causes. (With notable exceptions, granted.)

If their reason is, “because I just don’t like to. I don’t care if it doesn’t make sense, it’s just how I am,” I have said nothing but “more power to them” repeatedly.

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Aren’t kosher laws a matter of faith? Since when has faith required linear logic?

Do you really have trouble grasping this?

And no; other people’s vegetarianism doesn’t require linear logic, either. My whole fucking point was, if people do think that their eating habits are more enlightened or more moral, they can quickly be refuted. And have been.

Disagree? I disagree that you’re a likeable human being. And there we are.

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Did I or Scylla say that somewhere?

Scylla made a very funny rant about vegetarianism. I don’t think it was intended to change lives.

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Conservative = meat-eating? I feel threatened by people who don’t eat meat?

Nope. Just a little amused, depending upon their attitude.

96

A point to add to hunting idea.I think that a lot of omnivores fail to have the vision of life and death that Scylla speaks of. If you are going to eat meat, you should spend some time on a farm, or go hunt something, prepare, and eat it. Why should vegatarians be the only ones to require orientation to the food chain? have some respect for your food, know where it comes from and appreciate it.
From conurepete, who should know better then to post to a pit thread after drinking Nyquil.

97

Mention you’re a vegetarian and everyone turns into a logician trying to prove the inconsistencies and flaws in your philosophy.

It reminds me of when I was younger and decided to quit as much as I could processed sugar products (because I thought it would help my skin problems) people would go to ridiculous lengths like citing that I ate toast to prove I was a hypocrite.

Yes I buy leather shoes sometimes when there are no non-leather shoes that are decent available. Yes I have had my picture taken even though I know the film has some materials in it derived some fish scales. Yes I’m a hypocrite, but hopefully at the end of the day I will have killed less animals and have been resonsible for a little less environmental degradation than I would have if I ate meat.

98

Okay - I’m a couple days late. But…

Isn’t that what your goat was trying to do? :smiley:

::ducks & runs before the gunfighters can reload::

99

Dr. Lao:

Certainly I’d be happy to concede that the most efficient means of feeding people comes from pure agriculture rather than husbandry.

If the task is to feed as many people as possible on a limited plot of land, the only meat those people will likely get is when the plow horse dies, (or maybe the occasional pig or milk cow that eats ag-byproducts not fit for human consumption.) But 'prolly in excess of 95%+ veggies.

I think that’s what you’re getting at, and I’d agree.

Everybody else:

For the last time, I am aware that it’s none of my business what you choose to eat. I can however have an opinion, especially one backed by some reason, and I can express it.

This disingenuous “Why are you so fascinated with what we eat?” Is a stupid-assed argument. What vegetarians eat and the validity of the rationale behine it is as valid a topic as any. I ain’t pulling a JDT here, so don’t act like it.

I read that statement to mean: “I don’t have anything worthwhile to say but I wanna post.”

100

Scylla, I’ve based my decision to not eat meat on causing the least amount of suffering possible in order to live. This matters to me, but I don’t accost people, or doubt the morality, of anybody’s choices of ingestion. That’s a personal decision. I ain’t a spacey yahoo either; in fact, I see the down to earth merits of Johnathan Swift’s Modest Proposal.

I am curious about your ideas about the value of plant life vs. animal life. I’ve always based my decisions on a distinction of consciousness between the two, and that animals suffer more the indignities we cause them. Whenever I’ve seen the topic of plant sentience brought up, usually in relation to the book * The Secret Life Of Plants*, it’s met with derision by the scientific community. Can you point me to good research that’s found that plants have a consciousness that causes pain upon death? If so, I will have to reassess my decision to eat plants rather than animals. I’m not trying to be a smartass; it’s something I’ve always wondered about. If you can point me in the right direction, I’ll give it serious thought.