Just to get back to the OP for a moment, it is my understanding that B12 is required very early in fetal development, before most women know they are pregnant (unless they are monitering VERY carfully). The American Medical Association recommends that any woman TRYING to get pregnant start taking B12 supplements before actually starting the attempt. This applies to women with omnivorous diets as well, since many of us have minor B12 deficiencies which, while harmless to adults, is a major cause of spinal bifia.
So even a fairly responsible woman with a vegan/vegetarian diet can become pregnant, start taking vitamin supplements THE MINUTE SHE FINDS OUT, and still end up with a damaged baby.
Not saying that these people in question were responsible, just that they aren’t necessarily criminally stupid.
mischievous, you wouldn’t happen to know where to find some info on that, would you? I looked a bit, but couldn’t find anything about the early pregnancy stuff. I’m just curious, really.
In the words of Lady Tiger from American Idol, “I beg to diffa!”
I’ve been vegan for 6 years and I’ve actually got a few extra pounds. Save the blanket statements for a group you actually know something about.
My B/F who is QUITE the meat eater, actually asks me to cook some of his favorite vegan meals (I make a kickass vegan chili) so I doubt the diet is THAT horrific. Something else I’ve noticed, at all family social gatherings, my mother will make some vegan appetizers (gotta love mom) and some non-vegan appetizers. Without fail, the vegan ones always go long before the non-vegan ones.
Contrary to popular belief, we DO survive on more than just nuts and berries. :rolleyes:
kay, I posted that last post before reading the thread.
I just get really upset when people come all guns-a-blazin’ ready to do a little vegan bashing. What other group is it acceptable to bash so wholeheartedly and just have it be “all in good fun.”
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve eaten with non-vegans (that would be almost all the time actually since I don’t know any other vegans) and had them wave their meat in my face while saying “mmmm!!!”
I just look at them like the idiots they are being and say “if I wanted to eat it, I would.” and fix them with my “I can’t believe you’re acting like this much of a dumbass” look. That usually shuts them up. Until the next meal.
I mean honestly, am I offending you by not eating meat? Sometimes I wonder. I never push my beliefs on anyone, and I try to avoid telling people I’m vegan because I just dont want to get into another “omigod you’re vegan? What about the poor plants??!!” conversation. I don’t wish to convert anyone. I also don’t wish to eat animal products, for my own reasons. Why is that anyone’s business but my own?
In my opinion, most of the really obnoxious “anti-vegetarians” such as Brutus are simply insecure about their own diets. Why else would they feel so compelled to harrass someone for their dietary choices? By all means, if someone is coming at you about your diet, then go to town on them. But the next time you see a vegan enjoying a meal, minding their own buisiness; do them a favor, mind your own.
And please refrain from alerting everyone in the resteraunt or at the party that your dining companion is vegan, that’s just tacky. If they’re not bringing it up, neither should you. Like I always say, “it’s not the vegans that are obnoxious, it’s the people they travel with.” I’ve said that a few times to friends and family, they’re a hell of a lot more considerate now…
Personally, I am a Breatharian. I subsist only on air, water, and light. Since this causes quite a number of vitamin deficiencies, I supplement my Breatharian existence with vitamin pills, some leafy green vegetables, fruits, grains, nuts, and meats. Some of you may be skeptical that a Breatharian diet can work with only air and water, but I am as healthy as a horse!
Referring to the original story, how did the woman’s diet escape the attention of her doctor? Is it possible that doctors in the 21st century do not know that vitamin B12 is both necessary and deficient in vegan diets?
No it’s not really since those are your nerves that you understand. That does not in anyway say that plants do not have some sort of nerve system that we do not understand. There are plenty of things that we do not understand so why can this not be one of them?
You do know that plants do not rot for a long time while in storage right? Maybe while they are rotting they could be in extreme pain.
My argument is not that you’re a hypocrite at all, I mearly asked how you can know 100% that plants do not feel pain. Hell even my pain would be different from your pain if we were to have something hacked off. I still maintain that plants do have some sort of feelings as they know when to grow, can find light in a box etc just because it is outside of your scope of thinking doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
I never said you were a hypocrite, I could care less what the hell you eat. I would eat dogs, cats etc if there was a reason for it, but there is not much meat on them and it is much easier to get meat off of a cow or pig, which by the way I have helped to slaughter.
I could care less what any one wants to eat, unless it might happen to be me, nor have I ever tried to tell someone to eat meat etc. However, you can not ever convince me that plants do not feel something.
Unfourtunately, I don’t know of anything online. The AMA recommendations I was told of by my mother, who is an obstetrician, so I believe her. I know about the B12/spinal bifida relationship from the research papers (I’m a biologist), but they’re not publically available without a subscription to the journals. And I can tell you that the events which pattern neural tube closure (which fails in spinal bifida) happen in the first few weeks from my human embryology textbooks, also not online.
I’ll see if I can turn anything up - get back to you later.
Gah, the ignorance. Go to Italy and you’ll see there are lots of cheeseless pizzas. The prime one, pizza marinara, a pizza with lots of bright red tomato sauce and garlic covered with dark green basil leaves which provide a contrast that’s oh-so appetizing.
On a completely obnoxious note, I will say that some fruitarians argue that eating vegetables, other plants, etc. is harmful to them and that we should only eat fruit. So, somewhere, in someone’s eyes, we will all be in the wrong.
Concerning my main point, though, I have no problem with someone making the choice to be vegan. That wasn’t my issue. The issue was in someone making an uneducated decision and then another person suffering over it. There are some who find that harm to any another creature is equivalent to harming another human being. I am not one of those people. I don’t wish specific pain to anyone/thing. Well, maybe my roommate sometimes, but that’s another story.
But, these women made a gross error in judgment and their children suffered for it. I’m still wondering why a doctor didn’t note this. Yes, I understand that there are thousands of things that can go wrong and it’s impossible to predict them all. But, when you are dealing with a specific issue, that of being a vegan, aren’t there some specific grounds to be covered?
Either way, Brutus is being an ass. I mean, it isn’t THAT hard to eat something vegan and still have it be fattening, or yummy, or healthy. Hell, if you think about it, french fries fried in Crisco with salt are vegan.
One of my favorite things to eat is pasta with Italian dressing. (Although I usually grate cheddar cheese on top, if we have some). Yum.
If people don’t want to eat meat, no problem. I like meat, not everyone does. No skin off my teeth.
The way I look at it, eating meat relates to direct suffering of an animal, whereas eating vegetables relates to indirect suffering. Since you probably can guess what I am talking about with the meat, let me skip right on to the plants.
To plant a field of wheat, first you must clear the land. This forces animals out of their native habitat and kills some of them. To till the land, you end up killing countless mice, groundhogs, rabbits and other burrowing creatures. The fertilizer you put on your wheat runs off into nearby streams and poisons fish. Around the world, the bananas and other tropical fruits were grown on land that was cleared from the rainforest. Sometimes animals are shot to keep them from eating the food.
Logically, the diet with the least impact on the environment would be as a hunter-gatherer and equal opportunity consumer. However, that isn’t possible at this time, so the ideal thing would be to recognize the suffering that went into your food and try to minimize it instead of demonizing one food group and deifying another that is in ways, just as brutal and much more long term.
Not a jab at vegetarians at all, just pointing out that your bread most likely has a few lives tagged onto it as well.
One of the first things I ask people when they’re going meatless is whether or not they’re getting dairy. Whether they are or not, I tell them about B12 and how important it is. Just doing my little bit to fight ignorance daily.
[slight hijack]
Ever heard of the mega-fauna extinctions? I understand your point, but I hate it when the virtues of the hunter gatherer lifestyle are over-exaggerated.
[/slight hijack]
I wrote a long post that those damn hamsters ate apparently. ;(
Anyways, I have a question for all of you who make up these elaborate “but plants feel pain!” and “your bread kills too!” arguments… What’s your point?.
Vegetarians and vegans who engage in that lifestyle for ethical reasons do so because they believe they are doing less harm than if they were to eat meat. They feel better because of it. This is the same reason the world has different religions. People have different faiths, views and opinions. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t cause the others opinion or belief to be invalid.
I just don’t get how people feel compelled to try and persaude vegetarians to go back to eating meat, or to start eating meat. Who cares? And something else I forgot, please, for the love of all that is good, don’t try to catch vegetarians or vegans “cheating.” That is the most ridiculous thing i’ve encountered in the past 6 years. People walking up to me when I’m eating lunch saying “are you sure that doesn’t have any animal products in it???” Fuck off asswipe. Am I coming up to you and investigating your lunch? Mind your own goddamn business.
I’ll never forget the time a coworker asked me in a hushed whisper: “do you ever cheat?” The hell? I just told her “um, I do this because I want to. If I wanted to eat meat I would.” Sigh.
Since eating meat causes animals to suffer, and clearing land for farming also causes animals to suffer, the only alternative is to eat ourselves. Auto-cannibalists, unite! (while you can).
