Believing that another person is behaving unethically is not the same as trying to impose an ethical standard (i.e. making some effort to actually change their behavior). I don’t think it’s hypocritical or disingenuous simply to refrain from trying to change behavior that one finds ethically questionable but none of their business.
You’re telling me that this never happens? Ever heard of PETA?
Do you have a problem with this, though? Do you think this gives you the right to attack my lifestyle as fraudulent? I’m just curious.
You and PETA share a similar zeal for deriding and criticizing other people’s lifestyles.
I just said I don’'t. I only have a problem with being preached at – and that DOES happen.
The First Amendment gives me the right to say that I think it’s ethically futile (which is all I ever meant by “fraudulent”), and it was once my lifestyle too.
Funny how the effect of all that preaching was to make you preachy right back. Maybe a “do unto others” stance would better serve you, if it’s preaching you want to discourage.
Oh, the First Amendment gives you the right to say just about anything, but a person of good will might shy away from the condescending moral judgments when he dislikes it so when others inflict same on him. For, I don’t know, the sake of consistency? I don’t find it to be ethically futile, and it’s been explained to you several times why it’s not, but you seem to enjoy saying it over and over. Also, I have to question if “ethically futile” and “fraudulent” are synonymous here. The former implies a good faith effort that ultimately fails; the latter implies deceit or underhandedness. Consult a dictionary if you’re in doubt. Thus, while you’re entitled to your opinion that my choice to be vegetarian is futile, you are going to offend me if you accuse me of being deceitful. This should be evident to you, but in case it’s not, I’m laying it out for you so you finally get why people are offended by your poor word choice.
So what if they genuinely don’t believe it to be so?
Surely there are people who genuinely don’t believe it to be unethical to steal, kill, rape, beat their wives, etc. I’m certain you *don’t *think it’s OK for them to steal, kill, rape, beat their wives, i.e. you would have no problem “imposing your ethics on them”
So, there are a two classes of actions
[ol]
[li]Actions that you feel are unethical but give others a pass if they genuinely believe they are being ethical (e.g. meat-eaters)[/li][li]Actions that you feel are unethical and refuse give others a pass even if they genuinely believe they are being ethical (e.g. wife beaters or hit men)[/li][/ol]
What is it about the first category of actions that distinguishes it from the latter category? Is it that the first relates to animals and the latter relates to humans? Is it that for the first category you are not so sure of your own thoughts on the matter, and for the latter you are 100% sure it is unethical? Other?
You forgot to mention the statement “A vegetarian diet which is only available to privileged westerners”, which is also obviously wrong.
What is this, the third degree? Do you have things that you think are wrong but don’t condemn other people for doing? I have several: meat eating and abortion are the two that instantly come to mind. Diogenes mentioned infidelity, so there’s another one, and doing hard drugs is another. I would never do any of those things, and I wish no one else felt they had to do them either, but I also feel it’s none of my business. Why? Because these are personal choices that I don’t think I have the right to interfere in, despite my own personal ethics.
I’m sure you could sit down and figure out how those things are different from stealing, killing, raping, and beating people up. Go ahead and do that, then post your own thoughts. I don’t think I need to lay it all out for you, do I?
But, for the record, this ain’t the reason. I’m pretty damn sure of my own thoughts on the matter.
Okay, you’ve convinced me. Next time I see someone eating meat, I’ll call 911. “I want to report a hamburger!”
Even though this is a humorous post, you bring up a good point.
The difference between the types of actions for which people don’t want to “impose” their ethics on others (meat-eating, abortion, infidelity) and the types of actions for which people feel fine imposing their ethics on others (stealing, killing, wife-beating, rape), seems to be that the former category is legal (in the US) while the latter category is illegal (in the US)
Basically, you guys are saying “If it’s legal, you can do whatever you want, I can’t/won’t judge you”. Is this correct?
In any case, I don’t care what the law currently says. Even if it is legal, infidelity is unethical and I do judge harshly someone who commits it. I don’t say “Infidelity is bad for me, but it’s OK for Joe to cheat on his wife because under his ethics it’s OK”
Dude, if you really want this answered, open up another thread about it. It’s a completely different topic than the OP, and different (although tangentially related) from the 8 pages of this thread.
This is related to the discussion as much as is the question of whether Maasai only eat meat, and all the other tangential topics raised in this thread.
Basically, in response to “You’re judging meat-eaters” (which is directly related to the OP), some vegetarians are saying “This action is unethical FOR ME, but OK for others to do”, and some of us are saying that that is an illogical statement. So, I’m trying to see if there are any actions for which that holds and why.
BTW, for your junior-mod badge, apply at counter #5.
From an ethics viewpoint, this is where I am at with my veganism. I do think that in general people who eat meat are behaving unethically, but I don’t think it’s my job (or that it’s very effective) to try and police them.
I’m not saying it’s OK for others to do, really. I’m saying it’s none of my business and I don’t think in terms of what other people should do when it comes to their personal diet. Likewise:
Not saying it’s OK for Joe to cheat on his wife. But I’m not Joe, I don’t know what his situation is with his wife, and I can’t tell him how to live. Infidelity is bad, but it doesn’t result in death, dismemberment, loss of property, etc. It’s really between just the two people, so it’s not my place to say.
Now, as for this “it’s legal” argument-- you’ll note that I mentioned drug use, which is not legal. I don’t approve of people shooting heroin or smoking crack, but it’s not for me to get involved with personal choices that only involve them. Ditto for people who smoke, overeat, ride their motorcycle without a helmet, etc.
Everyone has these lines that you’re harping on, not just vegetarians. I’m sure you have them too. Why not spend some time thinking about your own lines… unless you sit around and judge everyone harshly and make an effort to change their behavior, in which case you probably have time for little else, and not many friends.
See, this stance is logically consistent.
How is it different from this?
Answer: it’s not. But your question still stands-- if it’s unethical, why do you tolerate it?
You’re right. They should ban you on general principles, not because of what bloody things you eat.
I agree, it’s practically the same. It’s just that your post came after geezermom67’s and I was responding to the earlier post.
Also, she was a bit more explicit about her stance: “I do think that in general people who eat meat are behaving unethically”. In your past statements you kept saying variations of “It’s unethical for me to do it”, and only recently did you say “I’m not saying it’s OK for others to do, really”
Well, there are a lot of things people find unethical, but they don’t have the means/energy/time/influence to change them, so people just live with them. Even if I don’t like drug traffickers, am I “tolerating” them if I don’t go on a crusade against them? No. I can still consider someone unethical and not go out of my way to change them.
I’m not saying anything about what others do. If you force me to say then I’ll say I think it’s unethical but I can only see things from my own point of view, and can only consider that when making ethical decisions. Other people bring other considerations to the table when forming their ethical principles, which probably influence their choices. I accept that, within reason.
Excellent. You’ve answered your own question.
Never suggested otherwise. It’s you, however, who have been portraying vegetarians as if this sort of behavior is the norm rather than an aberration.
Are you still sticking to your story that grains have no protein or fat? Or have you moved on to other misrepresentations now?