Also if animals are not worth more than vegetables in your ethical system, are people worth more than animals? If so why?
Because a cow can look you in the face and moo, whereas a carrot is a lousy conversationalist.
Actualy Weirddave let me give you an example. Your neighbour owns both a fruit tree and a dog (amongst other things.) One day peering over the fence you see your neighbour’s two children “playing” in the back yard. One of them is sawing a branch off the tree to see what the inside of a branch looks like. The other is sawing a leg off the dog to see what the inside of a dog looks like. What is your reaction? Do you ignore them and go back to what you were doing? Do you call the police or the animal protection society? Do you tell one of the children to stop and let the other children continue?
Yep, humans are omnivorous. We’re capable of digesting food from both animal and plant sources. Some of us choose not to eat meat. I don’t want to eat another sentient creature, it feels wrong to me. Your opinion may differ, and that’s fine, we all have to make our own choices.
I feed my cats meat. Why? Cats, more so even than dogs, are carnivores. (Although if I had a dog, the same would apply.) They can’t really digest plant foods without massive chemical tinkering and supplementation of the food. They don’t have the choice, I do. Simple as that. 
(Previewing, I guess I should clarify my definition of “sentient” here. Animals can feel pain and some type of emotions. True, they aren’t self-aware as humans are, but they do have a level of consciousness. Plants don’t.)
I’m not a vegetarian, but I can certainly understand why people choose not to eat animals that are raised under commercial farming conditions, which are definitely not natural and not pleasant for the animals involved. If I had the money, I might make an effort to eat only free-range chicken and stuff, but it’s not really possible with my current income.
OTOH, I don’t think I would ever get too worked up over eating game or seafood that came from the wild – heck, that deer probably had a perfectly decent life and a swift death, and that’s all any of us can hope for. However, if other people don’t want to eat it, they have every right not to.
I don’t know if this is just my weird way of thinking (probably :p) but I suppose I think of it as if I couldn’t kill it myself then I don’t eat it.
For what it’s worth, I haven’t eaten meat in 15 years, but neither have I eaten tofu.
Errmmm… real life terminology or science fiction? Sentient means responsive to or conscious of sensation… and while cows are certainly none too bright they certainly sense. Sapient on the other hand means what sentient means to the sci-fi crowd.
'Course… we have a special term for humans that eat spaient beings.
I don’t eat meat or fish, just chicken once or twice a year(no turkey today). I choose not to eat meat because I figure if I can live without killing something, why not do it? I feel for me it’s not necessary to kill that cow, or deer or whatever animal it is just to live. If I can do it on vegetables, beans and fruit etc., then I’ll do it. I simply don’t want to kill another living thing. If you want to, go ahead, it’s your right-I know I live in the real world. I won’t preach and you don’t have to tell me we are ‘supposed to’ because of the shape of a few of our teeth.
Am I a hypocrite for saying eating a carrot is not killing something? I don’t think so, but feel free to call me one. I don’t consider a carrot a living, breathing thing.
And lastly, I know I’m gonna make some of you laugh, but I put myself in the shoes of that cow and ask how would I feel if I was that cow. I’d say, “Hey! eat some veggies Big Cheese!” Weird, yea, maybe, but that’s me.
10-year vegetarian here. I don’t get too hung up on the “ethics” of it – It’s mainly about health & economy for me.
It’s easy to understand why some people tend to empathize with cattle, though. Probably has a lot do do with those big, soulful eyes that cows have. Hell, we even tend to describe attractive humans by attributing bovine ocular characteristics to them:
Fish just don’t grab you the same way. I fished for years, and didn’t blink when the time came to bludgeon the catch and “clean” it. It may not be entirely coincidental that I stopped eating meat within a few years of my only hunting experience. You know, an eviscerated deer has the most unappetizing smell you’ll ever get close to. That, combined with the “Oh my God, I killed Bambi” feeling may well have coloured the way I thought about meat after that. Who knows?
First, I’d like to reiterate that I don’t believe that eating meat is immoral. That being said, the conditions that many on the anti-cruelty front object to are pretty nasty, and far from necessary. Take a look at this study at Cornell University, which addresses some of the negative effects of fattening up cattle with a high-protein, grain-based diet. Of course, there are specialty suppliers that raise beef cattle without feedlotting them, but by-and-large, that ain’t how it’s done.
Nobody likes a whiny vegetarian. Especially sensible vegetarians. I imagine that we feel similarly about them as feminists feel about the “All Men Are Potential Rapists!” camp, and Christians do about the “Keep Godless Evolutionism Out of the Schoolbooks” yahoos.
And then there are the militant carnivores, who feel compelled to attack anything a vegetarian says, apparently simply because they’re vegetarian. :rolleyes:
IANAV, though I eat that way more often than not out of honest preference.
Why is it suprising that food gets tied to morality, religion, beliefs, whatever? So do music, clothing, books, speech, etc. IMO it’s futile to expect “rational” answers for something that’s value driven. Maybe food’s tricker than most because it’s a biological imperative. Everybody HAS to eat to live. But look how the simple need to eat gets warped and whipsawed just by fashion, marketing, group-think, thinness, guilt, sin, whatever.
Maybe the whole issue’s volatile as hell just because it IS so basic.
The cruelty to animals facet? Eating meat carries an inescapable fact: a living creature died to provide the meat. Everything else spins off from that, only conclusions differ. Without making any value judgements in any direction, it’s very easy to buy a sanitary, neatly packaged roast, steak, etc. and ignore the realities of life, death and slaughter that provided it.
Reactions to that differ wildly, from total rejection, pragmatism, comfortable blindness and willful greed. But IMO the only real sin against food (grace) is ingratitude.
Veb
Dad: How do you like that burger that we human beings were biologically designed to eat, Son?
Son: 
It’s fallacious, Dad!
Amen!
Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, its too dark to read.
Weirddave - is there nothing that you do for your own, personal, ethical reasons?
Frankly, I’m surprised to see a MPSIMS thread about this. By it’s very nature, it is an attack since there is a big implication that being vegetarian is irrational and stupid. You didn’t say “tell me why you are vegetarian”. No, you said
and
Then if you aren’t being indirectly insulting, you’re being argumentative - asking why a turnip doesn’t have the same intrinsic worth as a cow and accusing Opal of presenting straw men.
If you want a debate, you’re in the wrong place. If you want to present your opinion, you’re in the wrong place. If you want to insult people, you’re in the wrong place.
If you want MPSIMS, then just accept this: to some people, a cow does have more intrinsic worth than a turnip. And then let it go.
pan
Weirddave, when a person changes their diet out of concern for animals, this can mean one of two things.
Firstly, they simply prefer to eat a meal which did not involve the killing of an animal. There are actually some people who extend this to any living creature. The Jains, in India, originally believed that it was wrong to end the life cycle of a plant, as well as an animal. They refused to eat vegetables and fruits that grow underground, as these had to plucked out, and thus destroyed, in order to be eaten. They subsisted on fresh fruits and vegetables which, ideally, had already fallen from the plant. Grains were obtained when the plants or the pods were dry and dead.
Most of us, however, make a distinction between animals and plants, as has already been described quite marvellously by Arnold Winkelried. Others make a distinction between mammals and birds or fish. Others draw the line at fish. This shouldn’t be hard to understand since everyone draws the line somewhere. We don’t eat human meat, and most of us wouldn’t eat primates. This has little to do with the actual cruelty involved, as any animal could be killed in an equally humane way. It is simply a matter of one’s personal values.
The second type of cruelty towards animals is less subjective. This is of the “Life of a Cow/Chicken/Sheep/Pig/Baby Lamb” variety that ladyfoxfyre mentioned. It is certainly true that many animals are bred in horrific conditions. Of course, anyone who feels the need to change their diet for this reason should really become vegan, as animals are bred in equally horrible conditions for cheese, milk and eggs. Also, there should be nothing wrong with eating free-range eggs, or even meat from animals which have been raised in humane conditions. I have been told that fish and other kinds of seafood are not harvested in the same way as other animal products and does not involve as much cruelty to animals, so perhaps this is acceptable also.
I feel that this is the only reason for becoming vegetarian which is actually somewhat noble, provided that the person is sincere and that there is no hypocrisy involved. For example, I can’t claim to this reasoning myself as I continue to drink milk and eat cheese without a qualm. If I went around saying that I had given up meat out of pity for farm animals, it would be pretty hypocritical of me.
Here is a good answer I have gotten from my friend in the past:
It’s not so much about guilt about killing animals. Though she doesn’t like the taste of meat, it’s not exactly that, either. She just doesn’t feel comfortable eating something which used to be sentient.
Mmmmmmm…Soylent Green.
Moderator’s Notes: Well. This is the least contentious thread on vegetarianism I’ve ever seen on this board. However,
I couldn’t agree more. Therefore, I’m gonna move this thing over to Czarcasm and TVeblen in IMHO, even tho’ there was a rather recent thread on this topic there. The best comments in here seem to be suited to that forum.
[Edited by UncleBeer on 11-23-2001 at 12:09 PM]
The food fight grows hot
Veggies versus meat lovers
Who gives a rat’s ass?