IANAV, but I strongly agree with at least one of the rationales for it. It doesn’t bother me that a cow gets killed so that I might enjoy a juicy hamburger. What does bother me isn’t the way animals die, but the way they live (see heraldgwena’s post, for instance), so that we might eat meat cheaply.
My uncle used to be a rancher, before he decided that he could do better by running a pawnshop. At any given time, he had a few hundred head of cattle on two thousand acres in Kansas. I used to think most all animals raised for food, lived similarly comfortable lives before we put them on our table, and maybe back then, it was the truth. It isn’t now. I don’t believe it’s necessary that we treat animals as well as we do our fellow human beings (not that that’s always such a rigorous standard), but it strikes me as unnecessarily and unreasonably cruel when we raise cows and pigs and sheep in enclosures that are too small to allow them to even turn around.
#1. I don’t think you’re being quite fair to my OP here. I asked WHY, because it makes no sense to me. I got some very good answers too, feelings, pain, etc…although for myself, without that added jump of self awareness, it dosen’t tip the scales. I see logic in using things as they are meant to be used. Cows, chickens, sheep etc…are herbevors, their place in the food chain is to be prey. Lions, wolves, etc…these are predators, their place is to eat the prey animals. Humans are both. Now, that being said, that is only how I feel, so I asked people who feel differently for their reasoning. I got them, thanks to all who have replied. I have no beef ( so to speak ) with anyone who choses not to eat meat. ( The exception would be people like the McCartneys, who seek to impose their beliefs on an animal (cats) and by doing so fly directly in the face of that animal’s nature. Cats are carnivores, period.) I am also not saying that people shouldn’t make value judgements between turnips and cows, but again asking for the reasons why. Think it through, and you will realize that the premise that it is OK for humans to eat meat itself is a value judgement favoring humans.
Did that answer your concerns?
I can see that as a valid concern. A question, though… would you be willing to pay significantly more for meat if it came with the guarantee that the animals it came from had better living conditions?
It would make meat more of a luxury item, that’s for sure.
Even as I type, hubby is off on his annual Thanksgiving Weekend Hunting Trip with The Guys[sup]TM[/sup].
Count me in with WeirdDave. My experience with vegetarians is mostly limited to the militant type, who feel the need to berate me and call me a murderer for eating a hamburger, while wearing leather shoes and smoking pot.
I have a friend who has a sister who calls herself a vegan, but wears leather, drives a gas-guzzling & polluting SUV with leather seats, smokes pot and snorts cocaine, yet feels it is somehow her place to give other people shit about their “unhealthy” omnivorous lifestyle. She thinks wearing leather and eating meat are two completely separate issues. That’s the part I don’t get. If eating beef is bad, why isn’t wearing leather bad?
I know plenty of vegetarians who won’t wear leather, myself included. I get the creeps sitting on leather furniture at other people’s houses or in their cars… I would never own such a thing. Gross. It just takes a little extra looking to find the same stuff without the leather. Check out http://www.veganstore.com for example:
Even places like Nike make non-leather shoes like these
I’m sure there are plenty of vegetarians who still wear leather, but don’t assume that most or all are like that. There are plenty of us who most certainly do not!
OK. You guys have convinced me. Last night i decided to become vegetarian. And today was my first day. I’m doing pretty good, but I have this meat craving…LOL. My husband’s going to try to cook vegetarian for me tomorrow, the darling. Mmmm…black bean chili…
Anyway, y’all brought up an important point…leather. I won’t buy any more leather, but I have these favorite leather shoes…I’ve had them for several years. And I bought a leather jacket a couple of years ago that keeps me warm, that I spent a lot of money on. Do you think it’s “wrong” for me to wear those now? Or is it ok, considering I already bought them in the past and it won’t make a difference now anyway?
Leather can or cannot be part of a vegetarian’s life. Vegetarianism is a diet, and as far as I know, you don’t eat leather. Vegetarian Times did an article years ago where they interviewed “unique” vegetarians, who chose their diets for health reasons (or whatever). One of them was a furrier. So, my take on it is that vegetarians can (technically) wear fur and leather to their hearts’ content - as long as they don’t eat it!
I confess to having a pair or two of (rather beaten up) leather sandals. I think that is the only leather I own, unless you count the leather trim on my backpack, etc. I don’t go out looking for leather things to own, that’s for sure. My personal reasons for choosing vegetarianism are complex, (a lot of it has to do with health, and the feeling of being “off the hook” and not having to eat that damned meat anymore). So, for me, I don’t have a huge problem with these old ratty sandals with their little strips of leather. I wouldn’t feel right buying a leather jacket, or wearing a leather skirt, though. That’s just me. YMMV.
By the way, congrats SuperLorie! Take it easy, it’ll be fine. There are so many fantastic veggie dishes out there, you will see, you won’t feel deprived!
That’s totally up to you. If I was in your situation, I’d probably keep the shoes and jacket until they wore out. (That seems to be the decision most new vegetarians make on the various veg message boards I read.)
FTR, I don’t wear real leather. But I love the look of fake leather.
Wow. I grew up hunting and to me nothing in the world smells better than a freshly-gutted deer. I’m serious. I know that sounds really gross, and I really can’t explain it, but that’s what I miss most about hunting. (I don’t hunt anymore because it’s cause prohibitive and I live in So Cal)
I kinda get offended when people say things like, “Well, if you had to kill your own animal, you probably wouldn’t eat it.” As someone who has been an active participant during the “slaughter” of chicken, turkey, rabbits, cows, deer, and elk, I assure you that that statement simply isn’t true. I was there when the animal died, in many cases I skinned or plucked the animals, cut it up, wrapped it up, and a week later, cooked it, and I never had any problems at all. Believe it or not, not all people find slaughtering to be an “icky” thing.
Besides, if I were to ever become a vegetarian, I’d starve. My personal policy is to never eat anything that is green.
I have a problem with meat eaters who would be greatly disturbed by the slaughter and prep of meat were they to ever witness it (or think about it, for that matter). Spend a day at the local rendering plant or hog farm and then decide what’s for dinner if you still have an appetite. Steak doesn’t come from a plastic-wrapped styrofoam dish at the local gorcer, contrary to popular denial. Those who can hang with the killing, good for you. I’m not into it so I don’t eat it.
But the U.S. social norm is to pretend that meat is a nice clean food far removed from nasty smells, grotesque imagery, and pools of toxic animal waste. Seems that veggies who question a carnivorous diet are just plain weird, eh? I know that I get questioned for it frequently. And no… I don’t even let people know unless required because it often becomes contentious. Objectivity is a lost art.
Growing pork, beef or chicken for protein is extremely inefficient. Why waste the resources if it’s not necessary? Thankfuly the majority of people on this planet don’t consume the average European/American diet.
Anyhoo, interesting board. Just found it today and happy to see some intelligent discourse bantered about.
I have found that I can’t eat meat like I used to, red meat in particular. Mostly I eat any kind of meat except beef. I do find steaks and roasts to be too hard on my stomach, though I can eat poultry and fish all I like. Pork varies. I don’t think I would ever completely go veggie, but I do find that I eat much less meat than I used to, and enjoy eating salads and dishes where there is little or no meat.
I used to work with a vegetarian girl at one of my old jobs, and since it was Minnesota and quite cold, I’d come in every day wearing a fur coat and leather boots and say “I’m going to go out for a big piece of meat now,” whenever I went on lunch break. She didn’t seem to appreciate it, but I started doing it only after she had subjected me to a few sermons about the error of my ways.
Also, one of my dreams is to taste cooked human flesh before I die. I have a list of animals I have eaten, and I want to eat one of everything except the “squishies” like oysters and slugs). I don’t have to pig out on it; just eat a few bites so I can cross it off my list. If anyone knows a good way I could get human legally, without chopping off a limb, let me know. Also, if you live in Houston and want to feed me something bizarre, let me know.
I have a problem with fruit and vegetable eaters who would be greatly disturbed by the living and working conditions of migrant farm workers who pick fruits and vegetables were they to ever witness it (or think about it for that matter). Spend a day at the local migrant work camp or packing plant and then decide what’s for dinner if you still have an appetite. Fruit and vegetables don’t come from a bin at the local grocer, contrary to popular denial. Those who can hang with the inhumane conditions, good for you. :rolleyes:
We all have other people do things for us that we don’t wish to do ourselves. Would I eat meat if I had to kill it myself? Nope. But the point is moot, as there is someone willing to do that job for me.
If a person chooses not to eat meat, I respect that as their personal choice, whatever the reason. I care not in the least what others choose to eat. When a person chooses to sermonize as to the moral reasons why I shouldn’t eat meat or have a leather couch, (both of which have happened) it’s intrusive and offensive.
Health concerns are somewhat a red herring. It is possible to eat a healthy diet that includes small to moderate amounts of meat, even red meat. It’s excessive consumption that is unhealthy.
Well I grew up on a farm and have been to, and seen the living conditions among, hundreds of farms around the midwest. I have never seen anything I’d consider to be cruel toward the animals. In fact, they pamper them quite a bit as there is a huge investment in each animal. What happens is a lot of propaganda about the “factory farms” being cruel to animals. Actually, I have not been to many factory farms, but it seems just as illogical and pointless for them to be cruel. There may be people who do practice cruelty, but it must be a loud minority.
There are some common reactions and counter-reactions to the though of vegetarianism. The first is that vegetarians are just sissies when it comes to the idea of killing “anything with a face.” The second reaction is that the rest of us are simply desensitized to it. However, being sensitive to it is a product of growing up in cities, away from animals, which to me is unnatural, IMHO. The result is the “humanization” of animals. I don’t know if it comes from Disney films, but Bambi couldn’t really talk if it were real life and sometimes a dog is just a dog (but that doesn’t justify pointless cruelty).
Opal - I dunno about that but I do know that if the only way to get ANY food was to somehow raise/kill/pick it yourself, there’d be a lot less time-wasting on message boards.
Or to put it another way - if the only way to get furniture was to make it myself, I’d be sitting on the floor right now.
MEAT ROCKS!!! MEAT ROCKS!!!
I eat meat. I always will. I am a hunter, and i kill deer for my own food. They have looked me in the eyes before i shot them…it feels weird, and saddens me a little at times, but the enjoyment of providing my own food for the table overrides it. (also, it just tastes GREAT)
As long as the animal dies without enduring a long painful suffering ( I have family that work at slaughter houses…the veggie horror stories are B.S.) I have no problem with eating it.
A question for the veggies… DO YOU WEAR LEATHER SHOES? DO YOU WEAR A LEATHER BELT? DRIVE A CAR WITH LEATHER SEATS? CARY A LEATHER WALLET OR PURSE? WEAR MAKEUP? TAKE VITIAMINS? animals died for these too.
animals die. people die. sooner or later we are all going to die. Apparently, the purpose of some animals is to die to provide food. VERY little is wasted. the only part of a pig that is thrown away is the OINK. every part is used, including the bones.
