So in summary
Gotcha
Thanks for clearing that up.
If we’re being charitable, they aren’t lying, they just have their facts wrong. Complaining that the other guy just told a bunch of lies is known as “sour grapes”. It’s a debate. If your opponent is lying, you counter with the facts. If Obama didn’t do that, it’s his own fault.
The President of the United States cannot be bullied.
I am partisan but that didn’t mean that I didn’t think Obama got his ass handed to him in the first Presidential debate.
Biden totally owned this one. The first words out of his mouth - “That’s a bunch of malarkey” - showed that he would not allow lies to go unchallenged and would call Ryan (he of the ‘Attempt To Set World Record For Blatant Lies’ RNC speech) on them.
He came forth as both substantive but also human. Biden is no Bill Clinton but among the four battling it out for the executive office, he comes the closest with an ability to be passionate (which is why he sometimes says things that sound funny, though he didn’t this evening) while also delving into wonk. And this debate performance highlighted that.
I didn’t think Ryan was bad, but he did not counter effectively when Biden challenged him on his lies and really, how could he when a lot of it is a matter of his own voting record? The bit about Ryan asking for “failed” stimulus money was indicative of this.
As for body language and demeanor, if Ryan can’t handle a foe who smiles at him, how is he gonna handle sitting across the table from a foreign foe who doesn’t?
Honestly, Biden’s response was similar to mine when I call my wife over to look at something online that is patently ridiculous and insults my intelligence: I laugh. It’s called incredulity. I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all. He suffers fools far better than I do.
Ryan’s best line was “Watch out, middle class. The tax bill is coming to you,” however as much as this might have had some on the right gleeful, I don’t think it will have legs since all of the independent scrutiny of Romney’s plan and certainly Ryan’s plans shows this to be untrue. Obama’s record also shows this to be untrue. Should anyone be surprised that the most recognizable soundbite from someone who is getting known for being cavalier with facts is a lie?
I was also impressed with the moderator who I think did a good job of holding both gentlemen to time constraints and treating both of them fairly, asking follow-up questions that made sense.
I considered the debate a big Biden win made even bigger since it came on the heels of a huge Obama failure. It will be interesting to see how both of the candidates at the top of the ticket use the VP debate in how they handle themselves next week.
That’s the one.
… or undersampling the SDMB.
My take, briefly:
Paul Ryan was perfectly okay. If that sounds like damning with faint praise, so be it. The only BIG plus for him is that he came across as competent. He can’t be painted as a Palin or Quayle.
But it’s always tough for me to judge Biden accurately or objectively, because so many things about him annoy the hell out of me. His permanent smirk, his smugness, his inability to clam up when his time is up… it’s very tough for any conservative to look at him and NOT think, “He’s an asshole. I HATE him. EVERYBODY must hate him- right?” Well… not necessarily.
It’s obvious that most liberals think Biden won this hands down, and that most conservatives think Biden turned off everybody with his antics and his smarminess.
But what I need to see and hear today is, what did the middle (the undecideds or sort-of-decided-but-not-passionates) think of Biden.
Did THEY think he scored a lot of points, or did he rub them the wrong way, too?
Now, either way, this debate was nowhere NEAR as big as the last one. Bden did a lot better than Obama, but not NEARLY enough to make up for Obama’s debacle. The last debate changed a lot of minds. This one? I’d be surprised if it changed anybody’s mind.
astorian, the CBS poll was a poll of undecided voters. They thought Biden won, 50% to 31% - 19% undecided.
Except for his sometimes oddly squeaky voice, I thought Ryan did a fairly decent job with the much weaker case.
If he’d of had the affirmative instead of the negative, he might have won.
Biden’s job was far easier and he didn’t make any significant fumbles.
I don’t think Biden’s body language was uncalled for at all. When your opponent refuses to argue in good faith, instead relying on a series of shameless lies to make his “case,” he surrenders any claim to a civil dialogue. A risible case should be mocked relentlessly, and as such his interjections were entirely called for. I’m more annoyed that Biden was forced to interrupt Ryan more than once due to the moderator refusing to step in as Ryan droned out a long series of (untrue) talking points.
Dunno where he got a sixth one, but his boss’ five are malarkey.
I only heard the last half, and only on radio, but this was almost the exact opposite of the first Presidential debate. Biden was brash yet confident, and human, while Ryan was effete and robotic. Yet just like the Presidential debate, the “loser” may have found an effective counter in Biden’s hammering of “levelling the playing field”, which will play well out of context if they choose to pursue this in later ads.
The polls say he did not.
Like it or not, the purpose of the debates is not to impress the SDMB with facts. It’s to win votes, and there is no evidence Biden smoked Ryan in the category of winning votes. The polls are relatively even.
Oh, for a second there I thought you were assuming Biden was some beacon of truth during the debates.
Obama lost last week. He seemed hesitant, spoke haltingly, and seemed unsure of how to proceed or how to counter what his opponent said. Romney spoke confidently and smoothly, and ran roughshod over both the moderator and the President, even though he abruptly reversed many of his previously stated positions, and outright lied. He looked in control. I didn’t buy into it. He didn’t change my mind, because confidently-spoken bullshit does not impress me. However, I know that Romney came off looking better, and Obama underperformed to a great degree.
Biden controlled the VP debate, called Ryan on his BS, and put him on the defensive. If it can be said that Romney won last week, then certainly Biden won this week, and he did it without reversing his previous positions or lying. I’ve been reading your posts since the election season heated up a few months back. You soften and weaken your candidate’s faults or faux pas, ignore or dismiss others, but call out the opposition for some of the same faults and emphasize their faux pas. You are the one telling himself a bedtime story.
I encourage you to revisit your opinion of the Obama debate, examine how Romney acted, and then think about the Biden/Ryan debate. Why was Biden out of line when Romney wasn’t? Why did Biden “lose”, in your opinion, when Romney won? Are you quite sure you are being even-handed, or are you finding angles, slants, technicalities and loopholes to give the advantage to your candidate, while denying them to the opposition? Consistency, sir. My view of the two debates has it. Does yours?
I don’t believe Biden lost, I just think that Ryan responded well enough that it was closer to a draw(maybe a slight Biden victory).
Biden’s behavior was much more boorish than Romney’s. Romney did not interrupt the President and he did not laugh while he talked. It’s a pretty easy distinction to make. Biden interrupted, Romney did not.
Do I seriously need to remind you of the only time in our nation’s history that on Inauguration Day, the party losing the White House met and decided to act in opposition to everything the incoming president wanted to do?
[QUOTE=Jesus of Nazareth]
Ryan tried to change a bill to deny medical care to rape victims unless it was “forcible rape.” That’s the kind of shit women care about.
[/QUOTE]
Christ, that’s a good point. Women’s issues were completely missing from Obama-Romney I.
Judging by how much Romney gained with women, I’d say women must feel their issues were addressed at the debate quite well. You know, things like the economy, taxes, regulation…
This is my problem. Biden was rude. If I was the moderator of that debate, I would have called him out on it and told him to act like a mature adult.
I disagree. Biden laughed at Ryan because his ideas are laughable. The Romney-Ryan ticket deserves scorn and ridicule because it is based on utter contempt for the middle class. Biden knows that Ryan has no business being on the national stage, for him to graciously refer to him as “my friend” shows far more civility than Ryan deserves.
It is beyond time that we quit pretending that mendacity deserves respectful consideration. We whine and complain, or bleat cliches, about dishonest politicians, but somehow it remains out of bounds to have them called out, clearly and forcefully on their lying?
Why is the word “lie” so forbidden? If you say something that you know isn’t true you have lied. It is that simple.