hi . . anybody here certified ms 70-176? whats the salary range youve encountered?
and how did you get your edu? . . self study, online or intensive?
i have vb6 learning edition installed at home. im enjoying learning with it. i have no previous coding experience; but higher than avg comp skills . . ie lotus; excel
i dont have a degree and im 39; fairly secure job as a lead qa tech . . but its blah blah blah. if i pursue 70-176 can i make 40k/year at least?
looking for advice
thanks to all
After studying for a long time, I learned that VB is the most useless, pathetic excuse for a development environment on the market.
I’ll stick to emacs and C, thank you.
friedo . . whats more marketable? . . c++ or vb6?
I don’t know first hand but I too am trying to increase my marketability and everyone has told me that C+ is better and Vbasic isn’t worth that much.
Looks like this is headed towards Great Debates!
I would definately recommend Visual C++ over Visual Basic, although the learning curve is probably steeper (especially if you throw in MFC). For maximum power, don’t use the built-in editor, use a powerful text editor (emacs is good, but not the easiest to use).
One question I like to ask people when interviewing for programmers is “What’s your favorite text editor?” I don’t care what it is, just that they have one 
(No, notepad doesn’t count).
Arjuna34
and what is the salary curve? . . i also have shredder dev c++ downloaded. so where which way should i go?
arguna . . wordpad
i need input!
arjuna . .sorry . . faw paw
Wordpad doesn’t count either
There are several good free editors (vim, a vi clone, and emacs are two), or many excellent commercial ones; some can even emulate emacs, vi, and other editors.
First some disclaimers: You can write any program in VB that can be written in C++, Lisp, etc. There are excellent programmers who only use VB, and you can write good, readable code in VB. However …
There are several reasons VB isn’t respected by some professional programmers. First, since it’s easy to get started in it, many new programmers use it. Once you get past the initial ease, though, it’s not any easier than anything else, and actually can make things more difficult. Thus, many VB programmers tend to be “newbies” that don’t get past the “newbie” stage, especially since they are often self-taught. This gives VB itself a bad image, much like CB got a bad rap among amateur radio operators. For me personally, writing code in Basic tends to bring out the worst in my coding skills- I tend to write spaghetti code in Basic. The language doesn’t really enourage well-structured code (not that it can’t be done, of course).
Second, VB tends do to things behind your back with respect to data types, and generally keeps you a little farther from the underlying raw code. This can be very irritating for some programmers used to the precision of C. It’s sort of like why a sports-car enthusiast prefers a stick-shift instead of an automatic
Third, many professional programming tools and libraries are either supplied as C source code or for use with Visual C++, and are more awkward or aren’t supported with Visual Basic.
Fourth, a C compiler is almost always available for a target platform, so knowing C makes you able to program a wider variety of platforms. For example, the standard development tools for programming Palm Pilots and Windows CE devices are made for C/C++ (yes, there are some Basic tools out there, but they aren’t nearly as complete as the C tools).
As to salary, that depends a lot on your skills and where you are. A hot programmer in Silicon Valley could make 100K+, while an entry-level programmer in a small town might only get 25K.
Arjuna34
Living in New Jersey, I’ve found that an entry level VB programmer can make somewhere between 30-40k, while an intermediate level programmer could get something closer to 65-75k.
Also, if you’re going to take the VB certification tests, you should pass both the Desktop and Distributed application tests (I think the other one is 175)
Yeah, entry level is around 40K, but when you start applying VB to databases like ASP and SQL, it gets significantly higher.
Don’t think you are programmer just because you’ve passed the Microsoft certification course in VB, VC++, or whatever. There’s a reason why people go to university for four years to become programmers - there is a LOT to learn.
Here is a list of questions I came up with for an initial screening interview for programmer applicants. If you can’t answer these, you don’t even get to show me your certifications, because I’m not taking the interview any farther.
What is a Stack? How does it differ from a Queue?
What is a Linked List?
In ‘C’, how is a string represented?
What is a thread?
What is a heap, and what would it be used for?
What is a constructor? How would a constructor in an object be defined?
What is meant by the ‘Scope’ of a variable?
What is recursion?
What is a Boolean value? What does a bitwise shift do?
Describe two ways to communicate with an object.
Hopefully, the professional programmers reading this will consider these to be ridiculously easy questions.
Of the last ten people I interviewed who came from a ‘certification mill’ like a one-year college program or a Microsoft certification course, NOT ONE could answer more than half of these questions.
My original list had tougher questions on it, but I had to start dumbing it down when no one could answer any of them. (I didn’t find a single candidate who had ever heard of a state machine, for example).
I really fear for the quality of the world codebase, since so many of today’s programmers are mathematically and logically illiterate. They can string objects together in VB to make a nice GUI, but take them past that and they start producing reams of crap. I remember one guy who produced a gigantic, nested structure of complex IF statements spread across several modules, when what he was trying to do could have been done with a state table and a small recursive function. Unfortunately, he’d never heard of either technique.
There are other reasons VB is looked down upon, in addition to what arjuna posted.
1). Size - An application written in VB is generally 3-4 times bigger than an application doing the same thing in C.
2). Style - Most VB applications look exactly the same because the programmer picks items like buttons and icons out of a list, rather than creating their own.
3). Speed - VB runs on top of all the windows layers already on the machine. Therefore the applications you write with VB must go through all those layers to talk to the hardware (like a serial port for instance). In C you can write driver code that talks directly to the port and can do it much quicker.
4). Applicability - because of its limitations, VB apps are used only for less than critical applications (time wise) such as database front ends, user interfaces, retail apps. When programming anything really fun (games, cameras, sound cards, or anything not on a PC), real programmers use C/C++.
5). I never have and never will hire a programmer who only knows VB, certification or not.
I don’t believe that’s true. Different programming languages are better suited for different types of projects. Where I work, we tend to write a lot of low level stuff, like file systems & NT Services. I highly doubt you can do that with VB. VB is better suited for GUI type applications.
Sam Stone, I like your list of questions. That said, I could answer all of 'em but the first one. I know what the stack is, but I’ve never heard the term Queue in relation to software engineering. And btw, I’ve written several state machines. So would I get the job or not?!?
thanks again arjuna . . vb6 comes with its own code editor, special reasons to use another?
sam stone . . i understand 5 outa 10. conceptually at least!
not so bad considering all i’ve really done so far is skim macmillans c++ manual and make “lucky 7” in vb6. thanks for the tip!
so i guess the concensus here is head right into c++ and pick up vb later?
thanks for the salary info everybody. it’d be hard to take a pay cut; but if i could get a foot in a door and they’d pay for continuing education, it may be worth it.
a coupla more questions please . . your microsoft certified when you pass 1 exam? any exam? your certified in that specific area; correct?
in anyones personal knowledge; how tough are they? all multiple choice?
anyone in a position to hire out there; would you hire someone who does’nt have a college degree?
specifically . . if i have c++ certs; live in suburban chicago, is it possible to find a entry position 40k plus?
Athena: I wasn’t talking about a physical stack, but the logical construct. There is a fundamental difference between a stack and a queue. What is it?
BTW, queues are used all the time in computers. Microsoft Windows uses a queue for one of the main functions of the operating system. Any clue what it is?
bda: 5 out of 10 isn’t good enough. If you can’t answer at least 9 out of those ten (I’ll cut you some slack on the ‘C’ question, as it’s language specific), then what you really need is to learn how to PROGRAM. Forget certifying yourself in a zillion languages.
What you should do is start with some good ‘fundamentals of programming’ books. Learn how to code a good function. Learn why global variables are generally bad. Learn how to reduce a problem down to common steps and implement them in code. Learn how to test your software, and how to come up with a testing framework that will allow you to validate your functions and make sure that they not only return right answers for specific inputs, but that they handle all the boundary conditions as well.
Once you’ve done that, learn object-oriented programming. Learn how to build an application out of objects, how to model what you want, etc.
Learn some Boolean Algebra. If I give you a problem that says, “I want this light to go on if you toggle switch A, or switch B, or switch C only if A and B are both off. However, if all three switches are on, I want the light off”. These types of problems come up all the time, and you had better be able to reduce them to a simple expression and deal with them. You might have to learn things like DeMorgan’s theorem to reduce the expression to make your code efficient. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen bad programmers try to solve problems like this with a whole bunch of nested IF and CASE statements.
If you just want to noodle around on your own, take whichever language you think would be interesting, and hack your way through problems. But if you want to get hired and be a professional, learn the fundamentals. Stringing together lines of VB or VC++ with correct syntax is a trivial part of programming. Actually coding in the language of your choice makes up perhaps 10% of the effort of designing any non-trivial application.
If you go the route of learning to program VB professionally, be aware that a huge chunk of your work will be designing GUI front ends for database applications. So learn SQL, and learn data structures and how to build them. Get a good book on database theory, so you can build a set of normalized tables that are extensible and efficient. You’ll be doing a lot of that.
If you decide you want to go the C++ route, you’ll almost certainly wind up working on system-level code, so learn machine architectures, and get heavily into the architecture of the operating system you’re working with. In Microsoft’s world, that means learning MFC, which is pretty complex and requires a lot of the theoretical knowledge I was talking about earlier.
If you go the systems route, you need to learn how computers work down to the bare metal. Get a book on Assembly language, and work your way through the problems. Learn how the machine represents programs, so you can understand C structures, register pointers, stack manipulation, etc. Learn about the hardware, what a UART is, how the RS-232 protocol works, etc. You’ll have to learn some networking protocols along the way, primarily TCP/IP. There’s a reason the C++ guys make a lot of money, and it’s not because they know C++. It’s because of all the other knowledge you have to have to be a good C++ programmer.
A very good book for general programming style is “Code Complete” from the Microsoft Press. Their “Writing Solid Code” is also excellent. You’ll also need a book on Data Structures and Algorithms. Grab a used textbook for a university-level intro to computing science course. Better yet, go to university or a 2-year college and study.
As you can see, I have very little use for ‘professional’ programmers who’s only knowledge comes from Microsoft Certification Courses. I don’t have anything against people with the certification, but then I don’t have anything against people who are self-taught. I look at resumes all the time from people who have never taken a formal computer course. If their skill set looks good, I’ll interview them and find out very quickly if they have real knowledge or just play around. The same goes for the certified guys. The certification means very little to me, so everything comes down to the interview. Granted, being certified may get you in the door for an interview whereas the self-taught guy might not, but you still have to pass that interview. And if all you know is what you got from Microsoft, I guarantee you’ll fail.
Something you need to know, BDA, is that 9/10ths of programming is working with other people’s code, not developing your own: either maintaining it, updating it, or building on top of it. Especially starting late as you are, you’ll probably never be in a position where you’re given a blank slate and told to make something. You’ll almost always be working in conjunction with others on systems that already exist, and for various reasons (technical or economical), you have to take what you’re given and work with it.
A reason to learn C/C++ over Visual Basic is that, given the above, you’re much more likely to run into C/C++ than Visual Basic. Large systems aren’t written in VB, they’re written in industrial strength languages. VB may become that in twenty years, but it’s not now, and you’ll generally find it only in one-offs and patchwork systems. VB is well suited to prototyping and as a glue language, not for building ERPs. You could build an ERP in VB, but it’ll probably suck compared to the same system in C/C++.
That doesn’t mean you should drop VB: scripting languages are a tremendously useful part of any programmer’s skill set. I started coding with Perl, and moved on to Java, C and C++ when I wanted more raw power at hand. But if you’re seriously thinking of a career change, you should bother learning the hardcore stuff, including taking night classes in Computer Science to get the theory behind all the practice you’re putting in. Then you can expect to earn at least 40K once you make the jump.
As far as Microsoft Certification goes, I have no idea how useful it is; I suspect not very, but I really don’t know. Probably experience and demonstrable knowledge (i.e., Sam’s list of questions) matter more in the interview. I manage an I.S. department for a manufacturer, and I couldn’t care less about certification - there’s too many ways to get a certificate that says you know something, when you really don’t.
Stacks are FILO, queues are FIFO. Do I get the job?
thanks sam stone and hansel . .
i’m processing your messages.
i came here hoping to find some pros for advice/direction; and i got that.
again; thank you for your time spent in responding!
I meant more in the Turing-machine sense, i.e. you can program a Turing machine in VB; a Turing machine can run any algorithm; therefore any program can be written in VB. I’d hate to write a device driver in Lisp
Sam Stone is absolutely correct about programming (btw I got 10/10 I write mostly embedded firmware on micro-controllers and DSPs). Learning C++ or VB is learning to use a tool, not learning to program. Just because someone teaches you to how to use a hammer doesn’t make you a carpenter. Plus, there’s a lot of differnent hammers out there that are useful in different situations.
Arjuna34