Actually we did have quite a few massive and under reported demonstrations. I believe there are more planned for this Saturday on the one year anniversary of the second Gulf War.
But the fact of the matter is that the Bush couldn’t give a f*ck how many people demonstrate as long as they have 51% on election day. If you ask me, our energy is better spent fund raising and planning a real political turnaround in November.
Furthermore, many people who were against the war, now that Saddam’s government has been toppled feel an inkling of responsibility for ensuring that some manner of order is maintained there. Granted, this would be better done by the UN than the US but that just doesn’t have the same “take to the streets” appeal as stopping a war.
Look I’m right there with you, but you aren’t winning any converts this way.
They have no “concern” at all for the Iraqi people.
The fact is that there still is no such a thing as trustworthy information about where and how and by whom the attempts to instigate civil war in Iraq originates.
That there would be a forseeable danger for this was known by everybody who is a bit informed about the country, which was transmitted to the US government long before the invasion started. (The same for the disasters regarding the cultural heritage of Iraq and which was largely instigated from outside the country).
Well, it isn’t made out yet if and how AQ was really involved in this. The suspicion is however of course very great. The last I heard about it is that one of the arrested men is indeed suspected to be involved and seems to have been in relation with AQ or AQ sympathizers. There are Moroccan investigators in Spain to determine if it has eventually something to do with the attacks in Casablanca.
Well, in my opinion people don’t make up their minds about elections in the last days. The only factors that are really important here are:
Undecided voters dropped the PP as possibility to get their vote
A certain amount of the population felt suddenly an urge to vote and clearly followed their emotions combined with the anger about the government’s declarations which were perceived as a try to cover up until after the elections.
I said in that other thread that in my opinion this attack came too late to have a serious influence on the elections.
I was a bit wrong, seen the fact that I didn’t take gave the above two points enough weight in my reasoning.
No, at the first instance it was not wrong to think first of all at the ETA. Especially since previously there was an amount of suspicion and even warnings that the ETA would target trains and stations. The ETA was also the first thing that came into my mind.
Yes, and I still think there is something wrong about those findings, or it must have been that they were listening to quranic readings while driving to their location. Yet even then you don’t leave such evidence that easily can lead to your identity (fingerprints etc…) in a car, while you can easily put it in your pocket before going on the run.
However I don’t think they “disregarded” these findings. In my opinion they were utterly shocked by it. Because it opened the possibility that they would face the reality that their support for the USA in Iraq indeed could have led to this massacre.
They switched camp far too late and much too vague. The public, being familiar enough with the ETA, its way of operating and its channels to come public, couldn’t believe from the start that such an attack was of ETA signature.
There was no warning, there was an incredible amount of civilians victims and next there came the claims that they were indeed not involved.
All that time the government still said the ETA was their first suspect yet that “other possibilities” were open. It was clear to everybody that they wanted to keep covered at all costs what they were excatly investigating and how far they were with that, until after the elections.
I think if they had said clearly that it could be the ETA, but that it also could be brought in relation with the involvement in Iraq, the people would have appreciated such a brave honesty.
The question remains however if that would have changed the election results as the question remains how the outcome would have been without this attack to occur.
I find the way some US media portray this - as reflected in many threads on this website alone - very disturbing and extremely arrogant.
Salaam. A
To the members referring to “anti war” demonstrations in the USA: I referred to them in my OP.
My question was:
Where are they when it comes to organize identical massive protests against the lies and decieving tactics of the US government.
Or are they not convinced that the Bush administration lied and twisted (almost at a daily base) its so called “evidence” that Iraq formed “an immediate threat to the safety of the USA” in order to have public support for the invasion and occupation of Iraq. Where is the visible and massive public outrage about that.
Salaam. A
Aldeberan, let’s get one thing straight right now. We’re called Americans, not “US’ers”. Say it after me: A-mer-i-cans.
Lighting candles, laying flowers, and marching with placards sure does a lot to fight terrorism, doesn’t it. Unlike actually going to the places where they congregate, and actively trying to hound them out of existence. The only way to stop terrorism is to fight terrorism. Anything else is futile.
I actually hoped that the attack would harden Spain’s resolve to act against terrorism, and encourage international cooperation among the Western democracies. Sadly, I was disappointed in that hope.
Which prompts us to ask why AQ would punish a civilian population for an invasion/liberation it didn’t care about. AQ has shown no great pan Arabic love given the bombing in Morocco. So it’s not about Iraq, it’s about supporting the US.
Now I’ve snipped bits of your post and lined them up bit. I’m not intentionally trying to take your comments out of context, so you may correct me if you feel the need.
This really is the heart of the matter. Why did AQ involve themselves in Spanish elections and how “free and fair” can that election be following such an external assault on civilians specifically designed to punish the incumbent governing party?
The governing party of course was in a terrible bind. Trumpet a bizarre escalation in the ETA’s tactics or introduce news that AQ was specifically targeting Spain. I can see ways they could’ve used either as a promotional escalation f the campaign. I can also see people shouting them down for fear mongering.
Even you take this view I believe.
But they did say it was likely ETA. Not with 100% certainty. It seems that they assumed the questionable muslim evidence was a deception. But as your previous quote mentions they did leave the possibility of Muslim terrorists open, despite questionable evidence.
In short it looks like someone, somewhere tried to play the Spanish people.
Well Mehi, until now I tried to stay polite and reacted on your silly attacks and your ridiculous insinuations with replying to them on a lighter note then you are even able to think of.
Yet as I realize now, you can’t even distinct a joke since you obviously have no clue about what it is to smile.
As for you “gallant knights”… I’m sorry for you if you need to rely on that sort of humourless posters. You obviously also have no clue about the meaning of “gallant” and the meaning of “knights”… For the first, try to interact with a real man, for the second, try to read some history and beware of some desillusion to come.
I’m so sorry but for me this post is my goodbye to you. I’m afraid that I shall no longer read/reply to whatever you may write to or about me.
Salaam. A
*Aldebaran, if you would be good enough to actually look at my cite, you would see that there are people calling for massive strikes against Bush, questioning the shady reconstruction deals, vigils in support of the folks killed in Spain, demands for progressive agendas, protests about the new prescription drug plan etc. People are simply not silent about their dissatisfaction with the Bush administration. Literally every day (as far as I can see) there is some event that is calling Bush on the carpet.
So, in the end, what more do you want? Will you at last not be satisfied until there is open rebellion and rioting in the streets? I am sorry to say, but it really feels as if you are either getting bad information, or let your obvious dislike for “Us’ers” cloud your judgment.
My I suggest you first of all show respect for the victims of that murderous attack and for their relatives and for all the other people who honour them with burning candles and bringing flowers to the place they died or were wounded.
At the same time you could also show respect for the more then 800 victims of the ETA terror in Spain.
Next: I suggest you read a bit about Spanish history. You might get informed about how they cope since decades with terrorism.
Next : Inform yourself about how other nations worldwide clive and deal since decades with terrorism.
Salaam.A
We did. They were part of the anti-war demonstrations, and in most cases, a primary focus of the anti-war demonstrations. For convenience’s sake, the issues were combined, since they’re related and all. Seems whatever coverage you’ve seen of the demonstrations in the U.S. has been rather minimal and/or skewed.
Some links, for your convenience (there are approximately 126,000 more where that came from):
As you can see, there’s been rather a lot of public debate on Bush’s motives (stated vs. actual) for invading Iraq. It would have taken you approximately 0.33 seconds to find out; that’s how long my Google search for “Bush Iraq war deception” took. In fact, there’s been some movement toward holding Congressional hearings on the misinterpretation of intelligence data regarding WMD. For that matter, you’ve been might selective in your reading of SDMB threads if you think a significant sector of the American electorate isn’t pissed off about the war.
Aldebaran I suggest you clarify the blood covered swords bit and realize that predominately terrorism outside North America is between factions within a geographic region/country. It’s rare that the Shining Path would blow up a Chinese market.
As for your asking why we don’t see more protests over here, well, we do have some. There is actually a wide variation of opinion here. Some are dead-set against the war. Some are not against it, but object to the way Bush has handled it. They say he should have worked harder on the diplomatic end, to bring European and UN support on board. But the UN hasn’t been terribly effective in countering terrorism, or despotism. Look at Afghanistan. That country was ruled for years by a gang of brutal, fascist thugs, and I don’t think you understand how that abhorrent that sort of situation is to Americans. If the U.N. were really effective, they should have had the Taliban out of there long before the attacks of 9/11/01. Similarly with Saddam Hussein, whose atrocities are well documented. Diplomacy should always be the first step, but sometimes we come to a point where diplomacy is ineffective, and the basic facts can’t be avoided: if we hadn’t attacked Afganistan in '01, the Taliban would still be there. If we hadn’t attacked Iraq, Saddam would still be there, and the people would not be getting ready to participate in the first free elections in their lives, for many of them.
I do grieve for the victims of terrorism, but I didn’t see that as the main point of your OP. I got the impression you were focusing more on the remarkable about face of the Spanish electorate, and the message which that sends.
I plan to sign the condolence book at the Spanish Embassy on 58th St. tomorrow or Thursday; they’ve opened up for people to come by from 10-3, Wednesday through Friday. It’s 150 East 58th, 30th floor. I bought a card with the Prayer of St. Francis in Spanish at my church and plan to leave it there if they’ll let me.
I’ll report on how many people show up. Not that it’ll impress our friend the OP even if the line stretches ten blocks.
Outsourcing’s cheerleaders like to tell us that by making American businesses more competitive, it will strengthen the economy and actually create jobs here. My simple question is, jobs for whom? What kind of jobs? Cheap imports flood our ports and lead to many jobs for the truck drivers who haul them from the docks up to your local WalMart, and many low wage jobs in that WalMart selling those goods. But how can any well paying jobs come out of this scenario? What will an “ultra-outsourced” economy look like? Will nobody have any disposable income except for a few entrepreneurs, their lawyers, and a few others, perhaps doctors…in short anybody whose work cannot be moved? How will such pressing techological crises, such as the need for desalination and alternative energy be solved when an engineering major offers no better hope of future employment than not attending college at all?
If it is indeed an action that can be brought in connection with what is commonly called “Al Qaeda” –which is probably going to happen - it has quite obvious everything to do with the Aznar government’s support for the US.
That is then of course linked with the presence of Spanish military in Iraq. Which is a Muslim nation and thus can be used as such in AQ propaganda, which is of course why they “care about”. You wouldn’t see them “care” about Spain supporting/following the US at an invasion/occupation of the North Pole.
Actually, the “intention” behind these attacks is still unclear to me.
Of course it is the most easy to see it as an attempt to influence the Spanish population’s voting behaviour. But as I said in an other thread: in my opinion it was planned far too late to have such an effect. The last information I had on the results was that the PP lost with merely some 200,000 votes while in the polls there wasn’t all that much difference between the two leading parties to begin with. (In addition: polls are just polls and no more then that).
The fact that many and mostly young people as reaction on this massacre decided to go voting is in my opinion not something a terrorist takes in account, let be take it as a reliable result of his actions.
Yet this is in most comments brought forward as one of the reasons why the PP lost, together with the cover-up actions of the government and their direct influence and pressure on the Spanish and even world press to support their vision that ETA should be portrayed as the main suspect.
It is in my opinion rather far sought to take the position that all these factors were carefully taken into account and calculated and rightly predicted by those who planned these attacks.
So my take would be that they wanted to make a statement and they have chosen to do this on a moment Aznar was vulnerable and thus probably in the hope this would have one way or the other an influence on the voting results. But don’t forget when you reason like this that it also could have resulted in the elections to be postponed.
Aldebaran, will you finally come out and acknowledge for purposes of this thread that Americans do not possess a single, monolithic opinion regarding the invasion of Iraq, much less what should be done to get Iraq back on its feet given the current state of affairs? I think I’ve provided ample evidence to the contrary.
Frankly, being tarred with the same brush as George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld is quite offensive to me, and I’m as American as pretty much anyone.
Well, let’s hope it comes to massive demonstrations that get the world press.
I can come into that reasoning to a certain amount. Yet my question is why on earth don’t people come en masse on the streets in protest of the incredible shameless way they were lied to and still are lied to by their president and government. I find it simply amazing to witness that they seemingly just don’t mind about that while in Iraq people still die day by day.
Actually, since I’m not US’er, winning “converts” is not my task nor responsibility. Yet I don’t think it can do much harm that I post now and then on websites like this.
